Recommended FOF Training Aid? Airsoft? Simunition? What say ye?

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  • Bubbajms

    Master
    Sep 3, 2008
    2,532
    38
    Delphi, IN
    Got to observe and assist with a training a few weeks back using simunition and it really got me thinking.. doing force-on-force with someone shooting at you really drove up the adrenaline and added a good sense of realism that I've never really had in a training before.

    I'm wondering if any of you have advice on ways to recreate this, shy of playing paintball or something. I liked that the simunition gear was basically a "real" firearm that was able to shoot their markers - same holsters, etc, were able to be used for a pretty realistic feeling. One of the guys mentioned airsoft, but I've never really seen anything that was anywhere close (of course, maybe I don't know what to look for, either)

    How do you guys do it?
     

    Jackson

    Master
    Mar 31, 2008
    3,337
    63
    West side of Indy
    The scenario design and role playing are much more important than the hardware. I've been in good scenarios with you everything you mentioned.
     

    rhino

    Grandmaster
    Mar 18, 2008
    30,906
    113
    Indiana
    The scenario design and role playing are much more important than the hardware. I've been in good scenarios with you everything you mentioned.

    Agree with Jackson. What you do and how you do it is a lot more important than the equipment.

    That said, most of us who use airsoft do so because it's far more economical (and available) than simunition or similar products. Louis Awerbuck (RIP) used airsoft, Fortress Defense uses airsoft, ACT uses airsoft. Karl Rehn from Texas, who pioneered force-on-force training for non-LEO civilians uses airsoft.
     

    Bubbajms

    Master
    Sep 3, 2008
    2,532
    38
    Delphi, IN
    Care to recommend a starting point when looking at airsoft stuff? I remember ordering spring-based pellet guns out of the back of "Guns and Ammo" or something when I was a kid a bajillion years ago, but they were quite literally toys. I don't necessarily think I need a carbon copy of a legitimate firearm, but something that has a semi-realistic feel would probably be beneficial in creating a realistic scenario (at least in my mind). The only frame of reference around here is the neighbor kid who plays airsoft, but his stuff is pretty crazy - much more along the lines of sci-fi than realistic firearms..
     

    rhino

    Grandmaster
    Mar 18, 2008
    30,906
    113
    Indiana
    Care to recommend a starting point when looking at airsoft stuff? I remember ordering spring-based pellet guns out of the back of "Guns and Ammo" or something when I was a kid a bajillion years ago, but they were quite literally toys. I don't necessarily think I need a carbon copy of a legitimate firearm, but something that has a semi-realistic feel would probably be beneficial in creating a realistic scenario (at least in my mind). The only frame of reference around here is the neighbor kid who plays airsoft, but his stuff is pretty crazy - much more along the lines of sci-fi than realistic firearms..

    There are a lot of brands, but I have acquired most of mine through Airsoft Guns Free Shipping airsoft rifles, pistols, spring, electric, Soft Air Gun - AirSplat.

    You'll want gas or CO2 powered replicas. Whether or not you want the slide to reciprocate (aka "blowback") like the real thing is up to you. The gas-powered replicas use propane as the propellant. You can use the "green gas," which is just propane premixed with the silicone lubricant, or use standard propane cylinders with an adapter and add your own silicone lube.

    Most of the replicas are virtually identical externally to the guns they mimic. For instance, all of my 1911 copies fit 1911 holsters. The magazines fit 1911 magazine pouches.

    How much value you get from the training/practice depends on the nature of the scenarios, how the role players behave, and the attitudes of the participants.
     

    Alamo

    Grandmaster
    Oct 4, 2010
    8,093
    113
    Texas
    What rhino said. In addition to 1911s, there are also Glock-a-likes, and I have a Browning Hi Power airsoft too. Both (and their magazines) fit the same holsters and mag carriers that I use daily.
     

    Cameramonkey

    www.thechosen.tv
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Site Supporter
    May 12, 2013
    31,688
    77
    Camby area
    And dont forget simunition HURTS!

    I still have remnants of a nasty bruise from the last intro to FoF class 3 weeks ago.
     

    rhino

    Grandmaster
    Mar 18, 2008
    30,906
    113
    Indiana

    Yep!



    And dont forget simunition HURTS!

    I still have remnants of a nasty bruise from the last intro to FoF class 3 weeks ago.

    Airsoft isn't the same, but it can hurt too. It also breaks the skin frequently. During one 2-day class three years ago I came away with a chunk missing from my forearm, three bleeding pellet wounds on my chest, and 5-6 on my back/shoulder. The torso hits broke the skin through a t-shirt and polo shirt over it. This can be eliminated with heavy clothing, but that also defeats the purpose of using them for training.
     

    Bubbajms

    Master
    Sep 3, 2008
    2,532
    38
    Delphi, IN
    Yeah, a pretty good portion of the guys in the training I referenced had done stuff before with blue guns and whatnot, but had never done anything with something where you could actually be hit with anything. The first scenario a gentleman stood behind a truck for cover and the opposing person thought quickly and went prone, peppering his shins and ankles with simunition rounds. Holy smokes, enlightening! It really upped the behavior of the participants after that first go-round..
     

    Shwaisey

    Plinker
    Apr 11, 2011
    108
    16
    Airsoft is a great FOF for training or learning if you use it well.
    Backyard games with clear guns from wally world won't give you the same effect as organized games with minimal time/cash investment.

    This video is a group that I play airsoft with (not primarily for training. It is mostly just fun!)
    Look for moving as a group, using hand signals and vocal communication, pie'ing corners, realistic force on force encounters, realistic size (and I assure you realistic weights of magazines and weapon replicas) most importantly relative weapons practice.
    Changing a mag in an airsoft replica doesn't feel 100% the same as a Real weapon but is the the next best thing and same movement. If your smart, you establish muscle memory using the same gear for airsoft as you would for real weapons. (Look for the Desantis OWB holster, Pistol Strobe light, rifle momentary on/off light) Its not required to dress up like wannabe delta force.


    I.E.
    A mall game in Ohio:
    [video=youtube;b9WmABSUGXw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9WmABSUGXw[/video]
    [video=youtube;RcakyUVoN_g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcakyUVoN_g[/video]

    I acknowledge airsoft if far from perfect, I have even stepped away from it a few times because the other players are often man-children and not worth dealing with.
    What is important to note is I personally have benefited greatly working with a close knit group of guys some of whom are former and current military and over the years I have learned BASIC concepts of MOUT/CQB/FoF/Communication/etc. that I otherwise would not have at all.


    If anyone is interested looking into local Indiana airsoft head over to Airsoft-indiana.com
     
    Last edited:

    rhino

    Grandmaster
    Mar 18, 2008
    30,906
    113
    Indiana
    I have one of these. It works okay. I've had to tape down the slide stop and a couple of my magazines leak now. They arent as durable as I'd like, but they do the job. I dont have significant experience with any other for comparison.

    Jackson ... try adding some extra silicone lube to them. Sometimes the seals get leaky when there is not enough lube and that will take care of it.
     

    esrice

    Certified Regular Guy
    Jan 16, 2008
    24,095
    48
    Indy
    Totally agree with Jackson that the "trick" to FoF is in the things like scenario design, environment, role players, and tactics taught, and has little to do with the actual hardware. The guns and equipment are simply a means to an end.
     

    dusty88

    Master
    Local Business Supporter
    Aug 11, 2014
    3,179
    83
    United States
    Opinion: is getting a teenager in FOF training with Airsoft (or similar) a good or bad idea for self-defense training?

    My son took the NRA basic pistol class, but now he's bored with shooting and doesn't want any more instruction. We could force him to go, but that seems pointless.

    I don't want to treat FOF training like a game, but training can be fun. Any one, especially instructors, that can comment on this?

    I'm speaking of a highly-intelligent 15 yr old who currently thinks his prowess in video games is meaningful, but is in the real world physically not very tough.
     

    ViperJock

    Master
    Feb 28, 2011
    3,811
    48
    Fort Wayne-ish
    Anything will work. But use whatever you can that hurts the most. You will notice that your use of cover has a subconscious component to it.
     

    Jackson

    Master
    Mar 31, 2008
    3,337
    63
    West side of Indy
    The mindset and attitude of the student will be a key factor in what they take away from FoF training. If he approaches it as a game, without the maturity and perspective to act realistically, take the lessons humbly, and grow... Well I'd say the time would be wasted.
    Opinion: is getting a teenager in FOF training with Airsoft (or similar) a good or bad idea for self-defense training?My son took the NRA basic pistol class, but now he's bored with shooting and doesn't want any more instruction. We could force him to go, but that seems pointless.I don't want to treat FOF training like a game, but training can be fun. Any one, especially instructors, that can comment on this? I'm speaking of a highly-intelligent 15 yr old who currently thinks his prowess in video games is meaningful, but is in the real world physically not very tough.
     

    bwframe

    Loneranger
    Site Supporter
    Feb 11, 2008
    38,170
    113
    Btown Rural
    Opinion: is getting a teenager in FOF training with Airsoft (or similar) a good or bad idea for self-defense training?

    My son took the NRA basic pistol class, but now he's bored with shooting and doesn't want any more instruction. We could force him to go, but that seems pointless.

    I don't want to treat FOF training like a game, but training can be fun. Any one, especially instructors, that can comment on this?

    I'm speaking of a highly-intelligent 15 yr old who currently thinks his prowess in video games is meaningful, but is in the real world physically not very tough.

    As long as its serous instruction including lead in's and after action. If it's a bunch of kids "playing," it may be well intention-ed fun, yet instilling bad habits. Notice how many muzzles are pointing at buddies in the above vids.
     

    Jackal

    Plinker
    Oct 9, 2014
    2
    1
    Muncie
    I can attest to the fact that airsoft is a good training aid. I don't play as often as I like, but you learn the techniques to work with your team, trigger control, use of cover, etc.

    You can kind of get the feel of how to do your mag changes, but as stated above.

    you pretty much just need to find what is the most effective way for you to learn.
     
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