Random violence stats I've compiled

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  • DadSmith

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    @BehindBlueI's

    Have you seen or know of anyone shot with a 22lr handgun? I ask because Federal and CCI both have brought out new 22lr self-defense ammunition.
    My daughter in law is a very tiny young lady, and she carries a 22lr Ruger LCP 2. I don't like her choice, but she never carried a firearm until I introduced her to them and proved to her why she needs one Especially now that she has two of my grandchildren.
    My son and her practice, she has become very proficient with it. I'd like her to move up to a 380acp or a 38 special minimum. However, she's satisfied with the 22lr.
    Anyway I'd like to know if you have any stats on how the 22lr in a handgun fairs vs bad guy?
    Maybe real world information might help her decide to get something more powerful.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    @BehindBlueI's

    Have you seen or know of anyone shot with a 22lr handgun? I ask because Federal and CCI both have brought out new 22lr self-defense ammunition.
    My daughter in law is a very tiny young lady, and she carries a 22lr Ruger LCP 2. I don't like her choice, but she never carried a firearm until I introduced her to them and proved to her why she needs one Especially now that she has two of my grandchildren.
    My son and her practice, she has become very proficient with it. I'd like her to move up to a 380acp or a 38 special minimum. However, she's satisfied with the 22lr.
    Anyway I'd like to know if you have any stats on how the 22lr in a handgun fairs vs bad guy?
    Maybe real world information might help her decide to get something more powerful.

    Yeah, a bunch. And some .22 rifles. It'll win those fights that a psychological stop will win, so there's all the ones that mere presentation won or that firing but missing won. FWIW, my grandmother used a .22 revolver to deter a rape attempt successfully simply by pointing it at the guy and telling him if his foot hit the top step he was a dead man. He believed her and left (drunken known suspect, "friend" of my grandfather, was dealt with after). It is tough to make a rapidly fatal hit if that's what it takes. Not impossible, but difficult.

    Obviously terminal ballistics suck. Even fatal shots outside the brain tend to take awhile to get there, and some brain shots are long term floppers, taking some time to get to the dead part. It won't break most adult bones, which makes 'shot placement' more challenging. Skipping off round bone like skulls, riding ribs, deflecting off teeth, etc occur. Any reason to suspect targeted violence where a dedicated attacker is a reasonable possibility? If no, I'm guessing she's not the sort to seek out confrontation? Not engaging in behavior that's likely to draw road rage, that sort of thing? If not, and she can present a functional firearm and fire it she's more likely than not to prevail. A .22 isn't ideal by any stretch, but if she'll carry it and shoot it enough to be familiar and passible with it, I'd leave it be for awhile until she gets used to at least.

    I don't know anything about the self defense marketed rounds, but I'm not sure how you could overcome the relative lack of mass and velocity. If nothing else, perhaps they are closer to 100% on the reliability side of things?
     

    DadSmith

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    Yeah, a bunch. And some .22 rifles. It'll win those fights that a psychological stop will win, so there's all the ones that mere presentation won or that firing but missing won. FWIW, my grandmother used a .22 revolver to deter a rape attempt successfully simply by pointing it at the guy and telling him if his foot hit the top step he was a dead man. He believed her and left (drunken known suspect, "friend" of my grandfather, was dealt with after). It is tough to make a rapidly fatal hit if that's what it takes. Not impossible, but difficult.

    Obviously terminal ballistics suck. Even fatal shots outside the brain tend to take awhile to get there, and some brain shots are long term floppers, taking some time to get to the dead part. It won't break most adult bones, which makes 'shot placement' more challenging. Skipping off round bone like skulls, riding ribs, deflecting off teeth, etc occur. Any reason to suspect targeted violence where a dedicated attacker is a reasonable possibility? If no, I'm guessing she's not the sort to seek out confrontation? Not engaging in behavior that's likely to draw road rage, that sort of thing? If not, and she can present a functional firearm and fire it she's more likely than not to prevail. A .22 isn't ideal by any stretch, but if she'll carry it and shoot it enough to be familiar and passible with it, I'd leave it be for awhile until she gets used to at least.

    I don't know anything about the self defense marketed rounds, but I'm not sure how you could overcome the relative lack of mass and velocity. If nothing else, perhaps they are closer to 100% on the reliability side of things?
    Thank you.

    She is not aggressive, she lives in the country in Nebraska, and a very small town. So probably not going to see much if any problems there. However, she does go to Omaha once in awhile that is a huge difference.
    I tried to install in her situational awareness when she's around, and she loves to shoot now. She's recoil sensitive, I think that its mostly fear of the gun going bang. Hopefully she'll grow out of that the more she shoots.
    She had the mindset when I first started dealing with her about protecting herself and the babies that my son would do the protecting.
    I ask her how he's going to do that if he's at work 10-12 hours a day? She thought that over and decided she needed to learn to shoot.
    The problem is her hands are very small, and if she went to a 380acp in a small LCP frame size. She'll never shoot it enough to get proficient.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Thank you.

    She is not aggressive, she lives in the country in Nebraska, and a very small town. So probably not going to see much if any problems there. However, she does go to Omaha once in awhile that is a huge difference.
    I tried to install in her situational awareness when she's around, and she loves to shoot now. She's recoil sensitive, I think that its mostly fear of the gun going bang. Hopefully she'll grow out of that the more she shoots.
    She had the mindset when I first started dealing with her about protecting herself and the babies that my son would do the protecting.
    I ask her how he's going to do that if he's at work 10-12 hours a day? She thought that over and decided she needed to learn to shoot.
    The problem is her hands are very small, and if she went to a 380acp in a small LCP frame size. She'll never shoot it enough to get proficient.

    Given the use case and threat level, she'll be fine as long as she has the proper mindset of firing it when it needs to be fired. The most likely avenues to defeat have nothing to do with the caliber for her situation. Pulling a non-functional firearm (either not getting a safety off, doing a click-no-bang, or mindset failure and hesitating to pull the trigger), inability to access it due to off body carry (if you said, I already forgot how she carries, but purse carry is worse than on body carry), or getting grappled before she can get a shot off.

    If you think she'd read it, maybe get a copy of: clicky
     

    DadSmith

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    Oct 21, 2018
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    Ripley County
    Given the use case and threat level, she'll be fine as long as she has the proper mindset of firing it when it needs to be fired. The most likely avenues to defeat have nothing to do with the caliber for her situation. Pulling a non-functional firearm (either not getting a safety off, doing a click-no-bang, or mindset failure and hesitating to pull the trigger), inability to access it due to off body carry (if you said, I already forgot how she carries, but purse carry is worse than on body carry), or getting grappled before she can get a shot off.

    If you think she'd read it, maybe get a copy of: clicky
    I'll put it to her and see if she will read it.
     

    Cameramonkey

    www.thechosen.tv
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    and passible with it, I'd leave it be for awhile until she gets used to at least.
    Good advice. And baby steps. My wife started with a LCP because she was honest with herself that anything bigger she'd never carry. Then she started shooting it and realized it was only good for bad breath distance. Its not a big deal because she admitted if its not somebody directly attacking her, it will be used after run-hide during an active shooter.

    Then she shot my G19 and realized how good she is with it. But still too big. Then Haven let her try his SCCY and she was OK with that (and shot it acceptably at 10 yards) so at least she got upgraded to 9mm.

    Then she finally accepted than she could/would carry a G19 so I bought her one.

    So just because she is only willing to carry that 22, that mindset could change.

    Oh, and I think the 9mm revolvers are a little easier to shoot than a 38. So I'd head that direction instead if an auto is out of the question.
     

    dudley0

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    I have never shot a 9mm revolver but I would think the moon clips at least would be a deterrent for practice.

    Also a snubby with wad cutters is tough to beat recoil wise. Not as fast to reload as say semi wads or full blown 135 grainers but they have a good track record in my opinion.

    Decades ago my spouse started off with a Barretta 21. Tilt barrel in .22 LR. As time progressed she moved up to a .38 wheel gun. She shot all the stuff I had but wouldn't carry a full sized anything.

    Now she has an LCR in .357 mag but carries .38 +p in it. She has a Shield and shoots it well enough but for whatever reason she won't take it with her.

    She is out of the habit of carry as well. Most times the thing is in her glove box.

    Now there is a tactical challenge waiting to happen.
     

    Amishman44

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    Dec 30, 2009
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    Woodburn
    So if Average Joe wins 80% of the time, how much better will your odds be with some realistic training and regular practice? Probably knocking around 100%, although there are always factors you can't control simply increasing your draw speed a little bit, distracting the bad guy just a little bit, seeing trouble coming just a little earlier, that'd up these numbers.
    That's where developing good situational awareness training, as well as threat analysis training comes into play (both are 'learned' actions) can, at the minimum, at least give you an edge in responding to potential and actual threats, should they present themselves. SA is no always perfect, but with practice, can help provide a edge whereby one can have a few seconds to begin to simply egress the area, seek shelter, place their hand on / draw their gun, etc., in staying ahead of the curve in self-defense mode.

    Is "faster" what you normally hear when people talk about multiple attackers? No, they focus on capacity. You have less time to use that capacity, so are you focusing on the right thing?
    I hear lots of people talk about capacity, but never about training, the actual threat(s) they may possibly be facing, the number of attackers they may be facing, etc. It's all in how one practices, and simply shooting holes in fixed targets is not self-defense practice, it's target practice.
    In short range defense (CQB), I prefer a heavier caliber, sacrificing 'capacity' for accuracy, because I'm comfortable with a Shield in .45 ACP (personal preference.)

    Speed, surprise, ferocity of attack.
    Criminals seek or want weak victims...
    Criminals try to 'surprise' or 'get-the-jump' on someone unaware of their presence...seeing and recognizing the potential threat earlier (even if just a few seconds) can make a huge difference in one's response to a credible threat, giving one a few valuable seconds to respond and, hopefully, overcome or defeat the threat, even if it means just running them off?

    Lot to take in on this thread...thank you BBI for compiling this information.

    Very informative!
     
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