PTR GI rifle questions.

[sig1473]

A super duper nice SAR8 with paddle release just sold on GunBroker for $1250.

 

[Mosinguy]

I watched it.

 

[tacdriver]

FWIW It’s a proven system and like anything there are tradeoffs with the design when compared to your M1A’s FALS’s and AR style platforms.

If you’re hung up on “is it the right choice for my dollar”, well Just take your time think “What do you want to use the rifle for? You did your homework on parts (which is a great start and your asking really good questions) so keep it up.

Just me, they are a nice ride, handle well, goes bang when the trigger is pulled. However, it truly comes down to preferences. Once again FWIW here’s something’s I ask myself once I’m past the “Cool” factor to the rifles themselves …
• Fire controls & accessibility,
• Accuracy,
• Maintenance
• Upgrade-ability (stocks rails scope mounts, mags etc)
• Parts availability.
• Overall costs

So when you summarize all these things and put likes' & dislikes and dollar amounts to them where they need to be it usually weeds out the playing field, also helps take the edge off of the “cool factor”.

Anyway my suggestion is take the time, ask yourself the questions and that will help with your decision making.

-Mike

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Pro: it was not invented here and it looks cool because it is different.

Con:

HK. Because you suck. And we hate you. « Monster Hunter Nation

The relevant observations of the Gay Drei:

For each of their wunder guns, you can get something else that costs a lot less, and works better, and has ergonomics designed by people that actually shoot. HK came about when some Nazis fled to Spain and built the Cetme. But Cetme doesn’t sound very tough, does it? So they went back to Germany and became H and K, and if you call it H and K, fan boys will get mad, and insist that it is HK, because manly Teutonic operators and Navy SEALs don’t have time to say the word And. So HK rose to prominence by building the G3, which is what the Germans call the Cetme.

Now the G3 is a decent rifle. It is a cheap, stamped sheet metal, battle rifle. It has terrible ergonomics, with a hard to use safety, (and this is coming from a guy with gorilla hands), and difficult to use charging handle. It is reliable, because of the roller locking bolt that destroys your brass, and recoils worse than other competing .308 rifles. The FAL smokes the G3, and the only reason the G3 exists is because the Germans were too proud to pay royalties to those uppity Belgians.

The G3 can be really accurate, if you weld a bunch of metal to the sides of it, stick on a nice barrel, and jack the price up $10,000. And no, that’s not a typo. The PSG1 is absurdly priced, and the cheaper version, the MSG90 is proof that if make anything absurdly heavy enough, it can be accurate.

There is a collapsible stock available, which is awesome, if you like getting hit in the face with a piece of rebar, which is what their $400 stock feels like when you shoot it. Germans must be tougher than we are or something.

HK may have overrated guns, but they’ve got the best marketing department in the gun business, and they milked that fee cow until it was dry.

 

[sig1473]

Pro: it was not invented here and it looks cool because it is different.

Con:

HK. Because you suck. And we hate you. « Monster Hunter Nation

The relevant observations of the Gay Drei:

For each of their wunder guns, you can get something else that costs a lot less, and works better, and has ergonomics designed by people that actually shoot. HK came about when some Nazis fled to Spain and built the Cetme. But Cetme doesn’t sound very tough, does it? So they went back to Germany and became H and K, and if you call it H and K, fan boys will get mad, and insist that it is HK, because manly Teutonic operators and Navy SEALs don’t have time to say the word And. So HK rose to prominence by building the G3, which is what the Germans call the Cetme.

Now the G3 is a decent rifle. It is a cheap, stamped sheet metal, battle rifle. It has terrible ergonomics, with a hard to use safety, (and this is coming from a guy with gorilla hands), and difficult to use charging handle. It is reliable, because of the roller locking bolt that destroys your brass, and recoils worse than other competing .308 rifles. The FAL smokes the G3, and the only reason the G3 exists is because the Germans were too proud to pay royalties to those uppity Belgians.

The G3 can be really accurate, if you weld a bunch of metal to the sides of it, stick on a nice barrel, and jack the price up $10,000. And no, that’s not a typo. The PSG1 is absurdly priced, and the cheaper version, the MSG90 is proof that if make anything absurdly heavy enough, it can be accurate.

There is a collapsible stock available, which is awesome, if you like getting hit in the face with a piece of rebar, which is what their $400 stock feels like when you shoot it. Germans must be tougher than we are or something.

HK may have overrated guns, but they’ve got the best marketing department in the gun business, and they milked that fee cow until it was dry.

I have owned 3 of these and have shot about 1,000rds collectively from the platform so I guess you could say I have some experience. I have a few differing opinions then the write-up above.

1.) Safety isn't hard to use and I have no idea what he is talking about. It's a simple flip of a switch
2.) Yes, the charging handle can be a PITA sometimes
3.) It doesn't recoil worse than a M1A, FAL, or AR10. It is a 308 for God's sake.
4.) I don't see how the FAL "smokes" it?? No evidence provided.
5.) The 2 PTRs and SAR I had both were very accurate.
6.) The collapsible stock isn't $400(I don't know where that imaginary number came from). They can be bought for $200 or less. I bought mine for $150.

These are just my observations on the platform. And as you can read from my earlier posts, I advised against the PTR so I have no affection for the platform. I just know the upsides and downsides of it.

 

[teddy12b]

I've looked at the PTR 308's and I just don't get that "trust it with my life" feeling from it. If we're honest with ourselves I think the most appealing part of the PTR's is just how many mags you can get for $50 or $100. Let's face it, there's no other battle rifle that even comes close to having mags that close to being free. If I was a 308 guy I'd buy those mags just to store ammo.

Along the lines of the AR10 type 308's, I like the new CMMG 308's. They use the DPMS pattern mags so you have a Pmag option feeding a non DPMS rifle. I've owned two DPMS 308B's in different configurations. Both times I bought the rifle just months before finding out another child was on the way and I could justify keeping daddy's new toy so I sold them. Both of those 308B's needed a new trigger, and both of those rifles would rock steel plates at 800 yards as fast as you could pull the trigger. The second 308B I had had a little more breaking in to go through, but was a serious piece of hardware.

If I were to get back in the 308 battle rifle wagon I'd take a look at those CMMG MK3 308's. For a 308 they feel light. It's just hard to find a good review on them.

 

[Tombs]

The more I read about the PTR, the more disenchanted I become with it. For starters, to get the desirable German parts you need an older PTR which is usually more expensive, but then you get crappy chamber flutes. To get a rifle with the good chamber flutes, you get inferior American parts (bolt head especially).

The bolt head and carrier is around $150 for a German set. Then on top of that, the original magazine release is missing and using just the button on the PTR can be problematic for one hand magazine changes. This is a $150 modification to get it done professionally and legally.

I think I'll just shop around and find something else. It's a shame since I really like the look of the G3 type rifles.

The question I pose to you: If you had already bought the rifle and had been shooting it and enjoying it for years then someone on a forum told you X part is superior, and that it should have a paddle magazine release installed, what would you do?

Think for yourself a bit here... There has to be some sanity somewhere. I have tiny hands and the magazine release is a non-issue to me. The grip and ergonomics of the rifle fit me wonderfully, probably because it was designed for someone my size.

The only thing that seems off about the rifles is a design element, and that's the charging handle. I have my likes and dislikes about it.

Once you break it down and see just how simple and rugged the design is, I doubt you'll worry much about what X person has to say on the internet about your rifle.

But feel free to buy a fulton armory M1A if you have $2700, or a DS Arms FAL for $1800. Don't go buying an SA M1A and telling me a PTR is lacking though, I think anyone who knows M1As at all gets exactly what I am saying. Have fun dropping $3k+ for an AR10 system that will run.

Lets not even get started on reliable magazines for any of those other platforms either. They're ever so joyful to find, and only require a second mortgage.

 

[sig1473]

I have a LR308 w/ a Vortex Viper that is just a little over $2K that runs like a top. I guess $19 PMAGS are expensive. M1A mags cost me $27 from 44Mag. My Springfield M1A has zero issues with a lifetime warranty.

 

[IndyDave1776]

What is good price to pay for one of these? What parts would you keep on hand if you had one? I'm looking at one of these fine looking rifles. How accurate are they? Tell me everything about them. I'm thinking after the holidays I could sell my WASR, sell a few other assorted things, and have some Christmas money to buy my first battle rifle.


Also, what's a good relatively cheap .308/7.62x51 brand? I expect to pay up to $.50 a shot. I think since the GI PTRs have a looser chamber I can shoot steel cased ammo relatively well. But I sure am jonesing bad for one. I also like those $.99 magazines!

I hate to rain on your parade, but this is a bad idea all the way around. I do understand--I was given to overlook the same things in the same way when I was your age. At the end of the day, you need a reliable weapon that you can sustain, which includes a healthy supply of ammunition. Keep your WASR. It is adequate for your needs, you are familiar with it, and you can buy a truckload of $20 magazines for what it would cost you to trade up. Ammunition is another issue, since .308 will be about $600 per case of 1000 PLUS SHIPPING (figure on another $40). A case of 1000 7.62x39 can be brought to your door for under $250 total.

I don't know how much Christmas money you are anticipating, but putting it in ammunition and extra magazines for your WASR would be a much better bet than having a PTR that you can't afford to supply. We have a very real possibility of the SHTF and the rifle you have with a few thousand rounds of ammunition will serve you much better than another rifle that cost you so much you can't afford any significant store of ammunition. Further, you understand what you have--and understand it well enough that I learned a thing or two from you over dinner. Going with what you know is always a good thing.

The last thing I would want to do is trample a dream, but this time I really do believe that consolidating what you have would be a very wise choice. What you have is extremely durable and reliable, and costs less than half the money to feed, never mind that you already are set up to maintain it. I will grant you that the PTR is also pretty low maintenance, but when you add it up, you are going to be looking at selling your WASR plus adding about $500 just to buy the bare PTR. Magazines are so cheap as to be negligible for the 20 round standard milsurps, but you will find that 20 round magazines are pretty well all that you are going to find. That top-loading Romanian drum you like is running about $100 right now, but it is there to be found, and the 30 round AK mags all but grow on trees.

Now, on to the ammunition. I believe that 4000 rounds of ammunition in storage would be a good target, albeit one that may not be attainable. If you simply use the $500 you would be down on the trade, you could have 2000 rounds of 7.62x39 in the closet to be left alone and have money left over for a small supply for the range that you can replenish as needed while keeping hands off the 2K in the closet (if we see a SHTF situation, I can assure you that there are at least 2000 unsavory individuals readily available who would cut your throat for access to food/water/other supplies). Conversely, if you trade, you now are already down $500 and are needing ammunition that costs well over double the money, of which you are now short before you even go shopping.

I haven't forgotten what it is like to be 16, but since then I have learned that it is no fun to put every last penny into something you can't use because buying it ran you broke and you can't afford to shoot it, much like buying a car that is beyond your means that you can't drive because you can't afford to buy gas. Not only is it no fun not to be able to go to the range, you will also have an ammo-starved rifle that will not be useful for your protection in a critical situation.

 

[Mosinguy]

I hate to rain on your parade, but this is a bad idea all the way around. I do understand--I was given to overlook the same things in the same way when I was your age. At the end of the day, you need a reliable weapon that you can sustain, which includes a healthy supply of ammunition. Keep your WASR. It is adequate for your needs, you are familiar with it, and you can buy a truckload of $20 magazines for what it would cost you to trade up. Ammunition is another issue, since .308 will be about $600 per case of 1000 PLUS SHIPPING (figure on another $40). A case of 1000 7.62x39 can be brought to your door for under $250 total.

I don't know how much Christmas money you are anticipating, but putting it in ammunition and extra magazines for your WASR would be a much better bet than having a PTR that you can't afford to supply. We have a very real possibility of the SHTF and the rifle you have with a few thousand rounds of ammunition will serve you much better than another rifle that cost you so much you can't afford any significant store of ammunition. Further, you understand what you have--and understand it well enough that I learned a thing or two from you over dinner. Going with what you know is always a good thing.

The last thing I would want to do is trample a dream, but this time I really do believe that consolidating what you have would be a very wise choice. What you have is extremely durable and reliable, and costs less than half the money to feed, never mind that you already are set up to maintain it. I will grant you that the PTR is also pretty low maintenance, but when you add it up, you are going to be looking at selling your WASR plus adding about $500 just to buy the bare PTR. Magazines are so cheap as to be negligible for the 20 round standard milsurps, but you will find that 20 round magazines are pretty well all that you are going to find. That top-loading Romanian drum you like is running about $100 right now, but it is there to be found, and the 30 round AK mags all but grow on trees.

Now, on to the ammunition. I believe that 4000 rounds of ammunition in storage would be a good target, albeit one that may not be attainable. If you simply use the $500 you would be down on the trade, you could have 2000 rounds of 7.62x39 in the closet to be left alone and have money left over for a small supply for the range that you can replenish as needed while keeping hands off the 2K in the closet (if we see a SHTF situation, I can assure you that there are at least 2000 unsavory individuals readily available who would cut your throat for access to food/water/other supplies). Conversely, if you trade, you now are already down $500 and are needing ammunition that costs well over double the money, of which you are now short before you even go shopping.

I haven't forgotten what it is like to be 16, but since then I have learned that it is no fun to put every last penny into something you can't use because buying it ran you broke and you can't afford to shoot it, much like buying a car that is beyond your means that you can't drive because you can't afford to buy gas. Not only is it no fun not to be able to go to the range, you will also have an ammo-starved rifle that will not be useful for your protection in a critical situation.

Yeah I see what you mean. Guess I'll get ammo and some parts for my WASR and maybe if I have enough money left over I'll buy a TNW built Suomi since I already have parts to keep one of those running thanks to you! Mags are cheap for it and 9mm is also quite cheap in a spam-can.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I found a good deal on magazines earlier--10 40-round Korean steel for $99. Other Korean product I have seen seems to be pretty decent plus the price is right.

Centerfire Systems, Inc. - Your Home For Ammo, Firearms, Magazines, and Gun Accessories

 

[Mosinguy]

I found a good deal on magazines earlier--10 40-round Korean steel for $99. Other Korean product I have seen seems to be pretty decent plus the price is right.

Centerfire Systems, Inc. - Your Home For Ammo, Firearms, Magazines, and Gun Accessories

I don't think those will fit my 30 round pouches. But that is a good deal if they are quality magazines. I hear the Korean drums are turds.

 

[windellmc]

I hear all the South Korean mags are junk. I bought some new Polish 30 rounders for $17 each from ak-builder.com last week.