Practical Firearms Training Distances......

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  • Axxe55

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    My thoughts, or observations, on practical training distances with various firearms, is that in self defense, or home defense events, that they will be up close and personal.

    IMO, practice and training should be taken at what is most likely to happen.

    Personally, for what I think are realistic distances, are, 1 to 7 yards with a pistol, and 5 to 15 yards with a rifle, carbine or shotgun. My distances are not based upon any scientific data, or reasoning, but just some good old common sense and logic.

    IF, you are involved in a SD or HD shooting, you are going to at some point, articulate, explain and justify all circumstances of that shooting, for LE to make a determination as to the justification of the shooting. IMO, the distances involved, will be large factor in that determination.
     

    MCgrease08

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    Learning to manage unknown contacts was the most useful and practical self-defense training I've ever taken. That teaches you to keep people from getting inside your reactionary gap and helps you gauge whether or not they mean you harm.

    Keeping people from getting close buys you time and time buys you options. It also makes it more likely that any potential self defense encounter is going to happen at distances greater than 1-3 yards. If someone is closer than that, odds are you will have to go hands on before you're able to get a gun in the fight. And at that distance the bad guy gets a say, meaning it goes from 'your gun' to 'our gun' so drawing might be a bad idea. If you do draw you'd better be able to shoot from retention.

    How you train should be based on threats you're most likely to face in your day to day life. In this day and age, I personally think that also includes being able to engage an active shooter. That is likely to happen at distances beyond 10 yards, so you should be able to make pistol shots at 25 yards and closer at a minimum.

    Movement is another big factor. People don't stand still in a gun fight. Are you incorporating moving targets into your training? Do you know when to disengage so that when your predator drive kicks in, you're not still shooting at someone who is in retreat and is no longer a threat?

    There are so many dynamic factors at play, I personally believe learning how to fight is far more important than planning for distances at which the fight might happen.
     

    ECS686

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    The last I read before I retired the majority of civilian incidents were within 7 feet (almost 3 yards) or closer.

    As a retired LE certified trainer the biggest issue I see with folks whether LE or civilian. They often have and train for a one dimensional view of how they think its gonna shake out or a perp will automatically respond by how you think they should. And thats simply not the case. 85% of people shot with handguns survive. And real thugs don't study gel tests.

    I've seen a ton of Federal inmates walking around with 9,40,38,357,40, 45, 223 even 308 and 12 ga 00 buck and they are walking around fine minus a limp with 1 or 2 of them. Even witnessed a 223 hit in the pelvis and we had to fight him to get cuffs on.

    So my suggestion is don't fall into one dimensional scenerios where you are always the victor or it goes like you think it will every time (have a plan B, C to Z)
     

    nakinate

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    I train anywhere from 1 yard to 50 yards. I’d go further but I’m limited by the size of the range.

    I’ve found shooting at longer distances is immensely helpful. It forces you to focus on the fundamentals and that pays off big time at more “practical” distances. Plus it’s good to k ow you can put rounds on target at 50 yards if you had to do it.
     

    gregkl

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    For pistol, I train at varied distances from 3 yards to 10 yards for specific drills. These have a time and accuracy factor to them.

    Then I shoot some steel at 25 yards mostly to see if I can hit it. And if I get the 50 yard bay I take a few shots at that distance. I do it mainly for the challenge to see if I can do it.

    It feels good to hit a piece of steel with my Shield from 50 yards. :)
     

    MCgrease08

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    Then I shoot some steel at 25 yards mostly to see if I can hit it. And if I get the 50 yard bay I take a few shots at that distance. I do it mainly for the challenge to see if I can do it.

    It feels good to hit a piece of steel with my Shield from 50 yards. :)
    If you're still running a dot on your Shield, I've done some number crunching that might make hitting those shots a little easier.

     

    gregkl

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    If you're still running a dot on your Shield, I've done some number crunching that might make hitting those shots a little easier.

    I never have put one on it. Just on my Compact. Funny thing is, I'm shooting the Shield better now even though it has irons on it. I debating on not updating it to a dot. It's a lot of money for something that I may(hopefully) never have to use outside of the range. And since I shoot it almost as proficient as my Compact with a dot, I'm going to leave it as it.

    When/if I get to the point that there is a vast difference in abilities between the two, I'll update the Shield then.
     

    nakinate

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    I got to the range for the first time in four months today. That’s a pretty long absence for me. I’ll put myself out there and share a couple of videos. (I’m no expert)


    The first video I went 7/10 at 50ish yards on 1/2 IPSC steel.


    This is 2 reload 2 with movement at about 15 yards.


    This is a pic of the steel for size reference:

    8E2GOfk.jpg


    I practice at closer distances too, but I really enjoy this stuff. Next time out I’ll probably work 5-10 yards.
     

    Axxe55

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    I usually shoot at about 10 yards. I figure if I shoot someone much further away, it might be hard to explain.

    IMO, there is nothing wrong with practicing at longer distances to gain a better skill level of accurate shooting, but, actually engaging an attacker at longer distances, I would assume would be more difficult to explain as being self defense.
     

    Axxe55

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    Some years ago on another gun forum I was a member of, a young guy was asking questions about what was the most accurate pistol ammo for a "XX" pistol he had for self defense at 100 yards IIRC.

    I informed him his money might be better spent on a retainer for a really good lawyer if he started engaging "attackers" at 100 yards, and trying to claim self defense!

    For some reason he wasn't as amused with my reply as I was!
     

    cosermann

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    Tom Givens has perhaps the best data set of self-defense incidents in which private citizens have been involved using a handgun for self-defense. Last I saw (circa 2017), 64 of Tom's former students had been involved in self-defense situations (could be a few more by now).

    Here's an article with some of his observations from those incidents:

     

    MCgrease08

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    IMO, there is nothing wrong with practicing at longer distances to gain a better skill level of accurate shooting, but, actually engaging an attacker at longer distances, I would assume would be more difficult to explain as being self defense.
    Just keep in mind, not all defensive encounters are going to be "self" defense. There is a whole lot that goes into deciding whether or not to get involved in third party encounters, but some things are so egregious we should be willing to get involved.

    For instance, you walk out of a store and you see a 250 lb. man beating on an elderly woman trying to steal her car. Maybe he has a knife or gun in his hand and he's standing over her. You're 25 yards away with a clear line of sight and backstop. Can you make that shot?
     

    nakinate

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    Just keep in mind, not all defensive encounters are going to be "self" defense. There is a whole lot that goes into deciding whether or not to get involved in third party encounters, but some things are so egregious we should be willing to get involved.

    For instance, you walk out of a store and you see a 250 lb. man beating on an elderly woman trying to steal her car. Maybe he has a knife or gun in his hand and he's standing over her. You're 25 yards away with a clear line of sight and backstop. Can you make that shot?

    Mass shooter events come to mind. If I have the opportunity to take out a guy shooting up Walmart from the other end of the aisle then I’d like to be confident I can do it.
     

    Axxe55

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    Just keep in mind, not all defensive encounters are going to be "self" defense. There is a whole lot that goes into deciding whether or not to get involved in third party encounters, but some things are so egregious we should be willing to get involved.

    For instance, you walk out of a store and you see a 250 lb. man beating on an elderly woman trying to steal her car. Maybe he has a knife or gun in his hand and he's standing over her. You're 25 yards away with a clear line of sight and backstop. Can you make that shot?

    It would have to be pretty egregious for me to involve myself. And for every person that would have to be a personal decision or choice they would have to make for themselves as at what point or circumstances they would involve themselves.

    What I practice at, and what I shoot at are two different things. I do understand your point and do agree. We do occasionally stretch shooting pistols out to 100 years for fun and bragging rights!
     

    GIJEW

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    IMO, there is nothing wrong with practicing at longer distances to gain a better skill level of accurate shooting, but, actually engaging an attacker at longer distances, I would assume would be more difficult to explain as being self defense.
    I agree with doing most of your SD practice at close range but, as was said upthread, it's a mistake to take a 1 dimensional approach. Distance shooting isn't just about building skill. The attack could be long(ish) range:
    *active murderer at the mall etc
    *the accomplice(s) of that close range attacker, taking cover and shooting at you from +/-25yds
    IANAL but the "totality of the circumstances" determine the credibility of a threat. Distance is just one factor.
     

    GIJEW

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    The last I read before I retired the majority of civilian incidents were within 7 feet (almost 3 yards) or closer.

    As a retired LE certified trainer the biggest issue I see with folks whether LE or civilian. They often have and train for a one dimensional view of how they think its gonna shake out or a perp will automatically respond by how you think they should. And thats simply not the case. 85% of people shot with handguns survive. And real thugs don't study gel tests.

    I've seen a ton of Federal inmates walking around with 9,40,38,357,40, 45, 223 even 308 and 12 ga 00 buck and they are walking around fine minus a limp with 1 or 2 of them. Even witnessed a 223 hit in the pelvis and we had to fight him to get cuffs on.

    So my suggestion is don't fall into one dimensional scenerios where you are always the victor or it goes like you think it will every time (have a plan B, C to Z)
    THIS^^^
    People often have no idea of how hard it can be to kill people--let alone stop them--or the limitations of small arms, in getting the job done.
    *A bro-at-arms spoke of following a 20' blood trail, while clearing a ridge, and finding a syrian with 3/4ths of his head at the end of it. Apparently, an M2 .50 took off 1/4 of his head and he crawled 20' looking for cover.
    *The cousin of a former gf got hit in the center of his torso by a dud RPG. He survived (yeah, G-d does miracles). Aside from having regular dialysis/detox because he didn't have a liver, he led a normal life
     

    GIJEW

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    I got to the range for the first time in four months today. That’s a pretty long absence for me. I’ll put myself out there and share a couple of videos. (I’m no expert)


    The first video I went 7/10 at 50ish yards on 1/2 IPSC steel.


    This is 2 reload 2 with movement at about 15 yards.


    This is a pic of the steel for size reference:

    8E2GOfk.jpg


    I practice at closer distances too, but I really enjoy this stuff. Next time out I’ll probably work 5-10 yards.

    Good on you for putting draw, movement, and mag change, in the mix, but you should improve your use of cover too.
     
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