PLEASE, PLEASE, correct this lie every time you hear it. We are not a democracy, we are a Constitutional Republic.

[Shadow01]

Now come on. Do we vote for representatives or are our representatives chosen in a process not of the people? That whole voting part is the democracy, and it’s IN the constitution.

Depends. How many counted ballots in the last election didn’t have a real verified registered voter behind it?

 

[DragonGunner]

Depends. How many counted ballots in the last election didn’t have a real verified registered voter behind it?

We will never know. The voting system is corupt, becasue the 2 party system decided 100 years ago that there would only be a winner of a 2 party system. So the government became corupt, they not the people chose the representative. The people only get to vote for who they put up....so its become a flawed system. And most trample the Constitution once in office. It should go back as many want to run for office of any party they can.....but the 2 party system set it up that can't be done anymore, The Republicans and Democrats did that after that dirty Progressive Party Teddy became President....wasn't going to ever happen again. The fix is always in on both sides so each side get what they want....the people just vote and that vote is always please raise my taxes and go in debt further please. Its not that the Constitution is flawed and needs replaced like so many desire. Its the people in power that have ignored it. Thats why it has no teeth anymore. "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams. Good luck finding a few of them in politics let alone in D.C. So I don't think we are a Republic anymore. And the todays democracy is leading the country to suicide. Most likely suicide by mass psychosis....we just saw that with Biden speech. Leaving reality for fear and anxiety of a enemy that doesn't exist.

 

[DadSmith]

Sorry, Liberals, But America Is Not A Democracy, And It's Better That Way

Our republic is democratic in that it is controlled by public opinion, but our Constitution requires patience for the people to express that opinion.

thefederalist.com

In defense of the Electoral College: Choose liberty over democracy

When James Madison wrote Federalist 68, he described the Electoral College as “almost the only part of the system, of any consequence, which has escaped without severe censure, or which has received the slightest mark of approbation from its opponents.”

hillsdalecollegian.com

Good articles.

Amazon product ASIN 0916308367
This is an excellent book to read.

The U.S. Constitution: A Reader|eBook

Featuring 113 primary source documents, The U.S. Constitution: A Reader was developed for teaching the core course on the U.S. Constitution at Hillsdale College.Divided into eleven sections with introductions by members of Hillsdale's Politics Department faculty, readings cover:...

www.barnesandnoble.com

 

[jamil]

Correct, and it was also founded as a Representative Democracy.

This isn't rocket science, or even as difficult as 4th grade science fair closet photography.

-----
Constitution = document describing form and powers of government.

Republic = no King or dictator.

Democracy = people vote on issues.

Representative = individuals chosen to represent larger groups.
-----

Our government features ALL of these things.

It is also worth noting that a Democracy is, by definition, ALWAYS a Republic. However, a Republic is not always a Democracy. Therefore, if your country is a Democracy, like ours is, it is not necessary to also say that it is a Republic.

This incessant insistence that we are not a Democracy, at a time when our opponents are insisting that we are opposed to Democracy, is insane! This argument only serves to make their idiocy sound plausible. It fits right in with extolling the virtues of the slave-owning Southern Confederacy when we are accused of being racist. We make their propaganda job easy for them.

If the seat of power is public, it is a republic. Rome, for example, had dictators from time to time, appointed by Senate, before it was imperial Rome. Rome at that time was a Republic.

 

[jamil]

Depends. How many counted ballots in the last election didn’t have a real verified registered voter behind it?

Well I think I have distinguished between practically and officially. Officially we are a constitutional democratic representative republic. In reality, we operate more as an oligarch.

 

[jamil]

We will never know. The voting system is corupt, becasue the 2 party system decided 100 years ago that there would only be a winner of a 2 party system. So the government became corupt, they not the people chose the representative. The people only get to vote for who they put up....so its become a flawed system. And most trample the Constitution once in office. It should go back as many want to run for office of any party they can.....but the 2 party system set it up that can't be done anymore, The Republicans and Democrats did that after that dirty Progressive Party Teddy became President....wasn't going to ever happen again. The fix is always in on both sides so each side get what they want....the people just vote and that vote is always please raise my taxes and go in debt further please. Its not that the Constitution is flawed and needs replaced like so many desire. Its the people in power that have ignored it. Thats why it has no teeth anymore. "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams. Good luck finding a few of them in politics let alone in D.C. So I don't think we are a Republic anymore. And the todays democracy is leading the country to suicide. Most likely suicide by mass psychosis....we just saw that with Biden speech. Leaving reality for fear and anxiety of a enemy that doesn't exist.

I think the government became corrupt long before 100 years ago. I get dragged for suggesting ranked order voting (not the automatic runoff variety) because that would likely weaken the two party system.

 

[jamil]

Sorry, Liberals, But America Is Not A Democracy, And It's Better That Way

Our republic is democratic in that it is controlled by public opinion, but our Constitution requires patience for the people to express that opinion.

thefederalist.com

In defense of the Electoral College: Choose liberty over democracy

When James Madison wrote Federalist 68, he described the Electoral College as “almost the only part of the system, of any consequence, which has escaped without severe censure, or which has received the slightest mark of approbation from its opponents.”

hillsdalecollegian.com

Good articles.

Amazon product ASIN 0916308367
This is an excellent book to read.

The U.S. Constitution: A Reader|eBook

Featuring 113 primary source documents, The U.S. Constitution: A Reader was developed for teaching the core course on the U.S. Constitution at Hillsdale College.Divided into eleven sections with introductions by members of Hillsdale's Politics Department faculty, readings cover:...

www.barnesandnoble.com

I'm sorry this is a long post. Please read though it. Only the first paragraph is about democracy vs republic. I feel like the rest is very important and relevant.

These sources do reality a disservice. It's a straw man. I don't think it's intentional. But when people refer to the US as a democracy, at least the people who know what they're talking about, aren't claiming that the US is a direct democracy. They understand it's a republic. Joe Biden, otherwise known as PedoHitler, for example, understands the US is a Republic. Within his "they're trying to destroy democracy" bit during his "I am literally Hitler" speech, he said so. He talked about maga destroying democracy, and he talked about maga destroying our Republic. You're taking your eyes off the game with this irrelevant nonsense.

The lie, as I've said, is that "maga" is trying to destroy "democracy", the "Republic" He's trying to use "democracy" as a concept that MAGA is supposedly against. And you guys going around correcting anyone who uses "democracy" in describing the US sound a lot like you are opposed to it. They don't understand that the "democracy" you oppose is the direct kind, because you're conflating direct democracy with representative democracy.

What I think the point of that "I am literally Hitler" speech is this. I can't help but think the imagery was intentional. Maybe some kind of psychological signaling. And the message that maga is trying to destroy democracy itself, the Republic, our nation, is setting things up for November. That speach isn't just about Donald Trump running for POTUS. It's too early for that. They're trying to hold the house and senate.

And this is how. They've been caught admitting that democrats are voting for maga republicans. Maybe some of that is real and organic as sane Democrats realize what the party has become and leave it. I think it's also part of a strategy and if that's the case it's possibly an effective one. I think the strategy is to get the maga candidates to win, and then as the election draws near, pin all the stuff on them that Biden is saying now. I think the raid on Trump's house is possibly part of that. Basically now that so many maga candidates won their primaries, next, watch them get marginalized by claims that they're trying to destroy democracy. The Republic. America.

I think arguing that we're not a democracy is really silly at this point. A democratic representative constitutional republic. I will say this much. Democrats do prefer majority vote. I think they'd be fine with a direct democracy. It's easier for them to corrupt. But, they understand that the democratic component in our form of government is not direct. They understand that we're a Republic.

 

[jamil]

Oh. And one more thing about those sources. I'd like to ask them to please recognize the distinction between a direct democracy and a representative democracy. Neither one is exclusive of a republic. Republic literally means "of the public". So not private. If a dictator rises to power through a coup d'état, that's not a republic. If a dictator is appointed by the people or by the people's representatives, that's a republic.

 

[BigRed]

I'm sorry this is a long post

No you're not!

 

[jamil]

No you're not!





View attachment 221811

Well, you got me there. Now that I think about it, I'm not.

 

[BigRed]

For entertainment of the analysts.

 

[jamil]

For entertainment of the analysts.

He lost me at, “we have two nations on this continent.” Well. Not that I stopped listening there. That’s just when I became skeptical of what I was listening to. I'm sure he meant country, but whatever.

Then he said something else that I don't think he's correct about. That what "they" mean when they say things like Trump, stole or is ruining our democracy” or something to that effect, the democracy they're talking about is the democracy that is Washingon DC. First, he's wrong about that. Congress does indeed have authority over DC. That's not democracy. DC has a mayor, and a city council, and they're all elected, and as representatives they get to vote on city legislation and whatnot and it works a lot like any other city, but, Congress has the final say. And DC does not have representation in congress. So "the people", aren't really that involved in what laws they live by, in a democratic way. There's no way one can call what DC lives under, democratic, representative or direct. But, that's what the constituion prescribes, so, it's just what it is.

But, I don't think "they" are referring to that regardless. I think there are two way they use it. One, it’s a political tactic to marginalize the people who stand in the way of progressives, and divide the supporters thereof from those who believe the lie. The second way it's used is in the marxist sense. And at this point I have to assume that the prominent democrats who speak like Marxists are actually Marxists. It looks a lot to me like that's the direction they're marching. And “democracy” to Marxists doesn’t mean the same thing that it means to capitalists. Democracy is the utopia they ascend to when the proletariat frees the population from the chains with which the labor market binds them. You know. When they're free to stand in long bread lines for food that isn't there.

 

[BigRed]

He lost me at, “we have two nations on this continent.” Well. Not that I stopped listening there. That’s just when I became skeptical of what I was listening to. I'm sure he meant country, but whatever.

Then he said something else that I don't think he's correct about. That what "they" mean when they say things like Trump, stole or is ruining our democracy” or something to that effect, the democracy they're talking about is the democracy that is Washingon DC. First, he's wrong about that. Congress does indeed have authority over DC. That's not democracy. DC has a mayor, and a city council, and they're all elected, and as representatives they get to vote on city legislation and whatnot and it works a lot like any other city, but, Congress has the final say. And DC does not have representation in congress. So "the people", aren't really that involved in what laws they live by, in a democratic way. There's no way one can call what DC lives under, democratic, representative or direct. But, that's what the constituion prescribes, so, it's just what it is.

But, I don't think "they" are referring to that regardless. I think there are two way they use it. One, it’s a political tactic to marginalize the people who stand in the way of progressives, and divide the supporters thereof from those who believe the lie. The second way it's used is in the marxist sense. And at this point I have to assume that the prominent democrats who speak like Marxists are actually Marxists. It looks a lot to me like that's the direction they're marching. And “democracy” to Marxists doesn’t mean the same thing that it means to capitalists. Democracy is the utopia they ascend to when the proletariat frees the population from the chains with which the labor market binds them. You know. When they're free to stand in long bread lines for food that isn't there.

I thought you would find more to say in it than just three paragraphs.

 

[indyblue]

I made a camera out of an old car model box and took actual pictures with it, and developed the negatives in the closet with my mom, while dad held a big blanket over the door to keep light out.

For a science fair, 4th grade I think. I got an “honorable mention” because the judges didn’t believe we really took the pictures with that box camera.

I haven’t trusted science since that day……..

I find it really hard to believe they never heard of the “pinhole camera“.

I thought all kids made at least one of those, I know I did and Developed my own film as well.

 

[Dante1983]

And it is the united States plural, not singular.

I thought it was just Murica

 

[BigRed]

I thought it was just Murica

Some do.

 

[BigRed]

Some think 435 "representatives" in a land of 330,000,000+ is "representative governance".

 

[Libertarian01]

Just to poke the dragon and throw some gasoline on the fire of this discussion I don't believe there has EVER been a true democracy anywhere.

The Greeks had it, but only in theory. Anyone could show up where they needed to, have their say, and vote anytime they wanted to by their laws.

Do you think some Greek farmer had any spare time to ride into town and sit there for a whole day to vote on laws? Or a craftsman to take time out of his or her busy day to go vote on something. Heck no.

The Greeks were more of an Oligarchy. Only the idle rich could attend the voting all the time and influence the laws. These rich Greeks could then gain experience in speaking and swaying opinions so that when the blue collar workers might actually show up to vote some of them could be talked out of voting the way they started out for in the first place.

Another word that might(?) apply to democracy is mob rule. This is why our founding fathers in great wisdom only allowed 1/3 of the Senate to change hands every election cycle. This kept it somewhat insulated from mob rule. So that if the whole country wanted to do something really, really stupid they couldn't change the senate in one (1) voting cycle. They would need at least two (2) and maybe three (3) to flip it. This would hopefully create a natural pause for us to get over our affliction.

Looking back to the Greeks I doubt there has ever been a true democracy anywhere. Those who have the time and money to show up will, those who don't won't.

So endeth the thought.

Regards and Happy Labor Day,

Doug

 

[BigRed]

Just to poke the dragon and throw some gasoline on the fire of this discussion I don't believe there has EVER been a true democracy anywhere.

The Greeks had it, but only in theory. Anyone could show up where they needed to, have their say, and vote anytime they wanted to by their laws.

Do you think some Greek farmer had any spare time to ride into town and sit there for a whole day to vote on laws? Or a craftsman to take time out of his or her busy day to go vote on something. Heck no.

The Greeks were more of an Oligarchy. Only the idle rich could attend the voting all the time and influence the laws. These rich Greeks could then gain experience in speaking and swaying opinions so that when the blue collar workers might actually show up to vote some of them could be talked out of voting the way they started out for in the first place.

Another word that might(?) apply to democracy is mob rule. This is why our founding fathers in great wisdom only allowed 1/3 of the Senate to change hands every election cycle. This kept it somewhat insulated from mob rule. So that if the whole country wanted to do something really, really stupid they couldn't change the senate in one (1) voting cycle. They would need at least two (2) and maybe three (3) to flip it. This would hopefully create a natural pause for us to get over our affliction.

Looking back to the Greeks I doubt there has ever been a true democracy anywhere. Those who have the time and money to show up will, those who don't won't.

So endeth the thought.

Regards and Happy Labor Day,

Doug

Then came the 17th Amendment in 1913, interestingly enough, and put not a chink but a fold to the founded design.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

He lost me at, “we have two nations on this continent.” Well. Not that I stopped listening there. That’s just when I became skeptical of what I was listening to. I'm sure he meant country, but whatever.

Then he said something else that I don't think he's correct about. That what "they" mean when they say things like Trump, stole or is ruining our democracy” or something to that effect, the democracy they're talking about is the democracy that is Washingon DC. First, he's wrong about that. Congress does indeed have authority over DC. That's not democracy. DC has a mayor, and a city council, and they're all elected, and as representatives they get to vote on city legislation and whatnot and it works a lot like any other city, but, Congress has the final say. And DC does not have representation in congress. So "the people", aren't really that involved in what laws they live by, in a democratic way. There's no way one can call what DC lives under, democratic, representative or direct. But, that's what the constituion prescribes, so, it's just what it is.

But, I don't think "they" are referring to that regardless. I think there are two way they use it. One, it’s a political tactic to marginalize the people who stand in the way of progressives, and divide the supporters thereof from those who believe the lie. The second way it's used is in the marxist sense. And at this point I have to assume that the prominent democrats who speak like Marxists are actually Marxists. It looks a lot to me like that's the direction they're marching. And “democracy” to Marxists doesn’t mean the same thing that it means to capitalists. Democracy is the utopia they ascend to when the proletariat frees the population from the chains with which the labor market binds them. You know. When they're free to stand in long bread lines for food that isn't there.

He also lost me when he said there is no judicial control of D.C., I take it he's never heard of Heller v D.C.?