Pistol Optics, or NOT?

[Rookie]

I've never been impressed with "optics ready" that requires an adapter plate. The manufacturers should pick an optic and go with it.

 

[cbhausen]

I've never been impressed with "optics ready" that requires an adapter plate. The manufacturers should pick an optic and go with it.

Having an engineering and product design background, I took one look at the Glock MOS plates and said “no way”. Right now, I have a C & H plate installed. And I’m looking at the new Holosun SCS to eliminate the adapter plate entirely.

It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure out a direct interface between the pistol and RDS is superior. Integrated RDS (perhaps with a replaceable module for reticle and specific features/future proofing) would be even better.

 

[ditcherman]

Point shooting doesn't involve looking at your sights. It's instinctive aiming based on muscle memory resulting from lots and lots of practice (and natural talent in some cases, I expect)

Yeah, that's just an impression I got from watching YouTube vids. It seems that some new shooters really can consistently shoot accurately after a few tries with the red dot. But we're talking about slow, steady, aimed fire...one shot at a time.

I have a red dot on a rifle and love it. I'm just not so sure about pistols, and based on the aforementioned S&W vs. Holoson fiasco, I'm thinking now might not be a good time to buy into the red dot approach.

Oh yea if we're talking slow and steady then I would agree the dot may make you a more accurate shooter pretty quickly, if it's a fine dot and iron's somehow keep them from being accurate. It never occurred to me to not have a time component in the conversation, my bad. I'm all about pushing the time right now.

 

[woodsie57]

Are YOU buying Optics-ready pistols now?

I'm in the market for a Smith & Wesson M&P 2.0 pistol, or I should say I will be when/if prices come down and supply normalizes.

I like the original 2.0 configuration. No-snag low-set sights, no optics cut atop the slide, and the hinged trigger.
View attachment 217338

I don't like the new optics-ready version with "suppressor-height" sights, and am wary of the new flat trigger. I don't like the looks of the the additional front-of-slide serrations either, or the way S&W seems to have emphasised/sharpened the diagonal transition line at the muzzle, from top of the slide down to the bottom edge. The original slide is smoother / more rounded. Compare the two pics to see what I mean.
View attachment 217339

I see the clear advantage of red dot sights on pistols. Frankly, people having no pistol experience "can't miss" after just 5 practice shots. So it's a game changer, but I'm not sure I want it. I almost never get to shoot these days so my skills are rusty, but I know how to shoot and in the heat of the moment instinctive point shooting is pretty much what happens. I may want to install a red dot in the future, but not now.

I don't see any standard-height replacement sights available (yet) for the new, tall "suppressor-height" sights. And I don't want to spend another $50 to $100 to replace those "new" sights, which make the optics-ready pistol more expensive in the first place.

On the other hand, if I can find the original-version pistol, I can mount a red dot sight on it later via a mounting plate that engages the rear sight dovetail. Of course, that means I lose the rear iron sight... I don't like that, either.

So what are you guys doing?

For range fun, or hunting, optics make sense. That's about it, IMHO.

 

[bwframe]

It's only a matter of time before all pistol slides will come optic ready.

 

[DadSmith]

It's only a matter of time before all pistol slides will come optic ready.

Yep even Taurus it seems is heading that direction.

 

[2AOK]

[...] I got sent to the Sig red dot instructor course.

Aside from the opportunity to expend a lot of ammo on somebody else's dime, the course taught me a ton about how to employ the dot effectively. I cleaned up my draw stroke and presentation, learned proper sight picture (you don't have to line the dot up with your irons, or even center it in the window to make hits...it's basically parallax free, so as long as you can see the dot somewhere in the window in-line with the target, and can pull the trigger without disturbing it, you're going to get hits...this did a lot to improve my speed), and assuaged a lot of my concerns about durability and my capabilities if the optic fails.

Thanks for the very informative post. I chopped it up, but read every word and appreciate the insights. The paragraph above is an eye-opener. I didn't realize red dot pistol optics were so versatile in terms of sighting.

QUESTIONS
The red dot on my rifle exhibits distracting aberations under certain circumstances, such as when the light source is behind me.
Q1. Do you find that to be an issue with pistol red dot sights?
Q2. Do you have difficulty "finding the dot" when shooting in very bright daylight? Sun behind you? Sun in front of you?

Coming away from that class, I have a whole new perspective on the Optic. It gives me a threat-focus and greater peripheral awareness [...] makes shooting on the move or between movements much faster and simpler.

Point taken.

Others have already pointed out the advantages at distance [...] and the target isn't obscured by your slide and sights with the dot.

I assume a pistol red dot optic will have a relatively large dot. If dot size can be "dialed up or down" from say, 2MOA to 5MOA, that would be very versatile. Big dot for up-close-and-personal, and tiny dot for dropping the mall food court shooter.

Is dot sized fixed?

[...] I believe that using the dot properly can actually make you a better iron sight shooter because it forces proper presentation and provides immediate feedback to the shooter as a diagnostic tool.

Point taken.

[...] if I was in the market for a new plastic striker-fired gun, I wouldn't consider one that didn't at least have the ability to mount an optic.

I don't want to rethink this, but it looks like I'll have to now (dammit).

As to the equipment issues expressed by the OP, I'd say do yourself a favor and expand your search beyond the M&P.

I hear you. After shooting Glock for years, I really appreciate the M&P M2.0 pistols. And until recently, they fit my budget. =O

I look at the pistols in question strickly as weapons. I don't want to have to think when forced to pick up a weapon. I want to know exactly what to expect...every time. Where the controls are, what the grip angle is, where the muzzle points, best way to clear a jam, etc. The M&P M2.0 line is basically "the same gun" with varying slide and grip lengths (a la Glock et al). Assuming ownership of more than one gun, I want them all to be "the same gun" when in hand.

I also appreciate ubiquity. I like owning tools, vehicles, etc that are not rare. Owning commonplace implements means parts are likely available and typically lots of information exists on how to repair, modify, etc.

To your point, if money were no object I'd probably invest in Sig Sauer pistols. I know CZ and Springfield Armory and some other mfrs make good striker-fired pistols, but for one reason or another I haven't found a product line that registers with me the way M&P M2.0 does. Maybe I should hold out for the M3.0 series. =D

A buddy recently picked up a 10mm and I got to play with it and the trigger downright sucks, and from what I've read that's pretty much the norm. If I was a gun company, I'd be embarrassed to put something out on the shelf with that awful trigger in it, which is somehow gritty and mushy all at the same time.

Sounds wonderful, and they're having FTF and FTE problems with those two 10mm versions. That "new improved flat-faced trigger" is getting mixed reviews at best.

What do you think about the original M2.0 trigger? The curved hinged one? I was accustomed to crappy Glock triggers, so I LIKE the original M2.0 trigger.

I ask your opinion because my gut says buy the original M2.0 pistol, not the optics-ready upgrade with its bad trigger, snag-prone sights and plastic optics mounting plates.

Most gun fights happen fast-and-close. No sights necessary. If I have to smoke a mall shooter, I guess I'll flank him or make a frontal assault, guns ablaze! =D

 

[kaveman]

If the 509T is beyond your budget at around $400, the 507C w/ACSS is a little better,......$310 in red or $350 in green generally. Standard 507C with 2moa dot and 32moa circle can be had for just under $300. Best deal going right now in my opinion is the 407CO on sale at PSA. 507C/407C all fit the same RMR footprint. The 407CO has an 8moa circle reticle, no center dot. Very clean sighting system and easy to pick up quick. I just got two of them in last week simply because of the price,.......$179.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/holosun-hs407co-x2-8-moa-solar-reflex-sight-black-hs407co-x2.html

Disregard! Had two more in my cart and they're gone. Just went out of stock.

 

[ditcherman]

Thanks for the very informative post. I chopped it up, but read every word and appreciate the insights. The paragraph above is an eye-opener. I didn't realize red dot pistol optics were so versatile in terms of sighting.

QUESTIONS
The red dot on my rifle exhibits distracting aberations under certain circumstances, such as when the light source is behind me.
Q1. Do you find that to be an issue with pistol red dot sights?
Q2. Do you have difficulty "finding the dot" when shooting in very bright daylight? Sun behind you? Sun in front of you?

Don't buy cheap, and don't buy auto adjusting, at least Trijicon rmr. Everything else should be bright enough. All this is IMO.

Point taken.

I assume a pistol red dot optic will have a relatively large dot. If dot size can be "dialed up or down" from say, 2MOA to 5MOA, that would be very versatile. Big dot for up-close-and-personal, and tiny dot for dropping the mall food court shooter.

Is dot sized fixed?

Fixed. Choices between 2 moa and 8 moa. However as you turn the brightness up the dot can appear bigger. You are basically choosing between precision 2moa and faster acquisition (so I hear) with the bigger dot. I'm all 2moa and don't regret it but could see some benefits to larger at times. Again IMO.

Point taken.

I don't want to rethink this, but it looks like I'll have to now (dammit).

I hear you. After shooting Glock for years, I really appreciate the M&P M2.0 pistols. And until recently, they fit my budget. =O

I look at the pistols in question strickly as weapons. I don't want to have to think when forced to pick up a weapon. I want to know exactly what to expect...every time. Where the controls are, what the grip angle is, where the muzzle points, best way to clear a jam, etc. The M&P M2.0 line is basically "the same gun" with varying slide and grip lengths (a la Glock et al). Assuming ownership of more than one gun, I want them all to be "the same gun" when in hand.

I also appreciate ubiquity. I like owning tools, vehicles, etc that are not rare. Owning commonplace implements means parts are likely available and typically lots of information exists on how to repair, modify, etc.

To your point, if money were no object I'd probably invest in Sig Sauer pistols. I know CZ and Springfield Armory and some other mfrs make good striker-fired pistols, but for one reason or another I haven't found a product line that registers with me the way M&P M2.0 does. Maybe I should hold out for the M3.0 series. =D

Sounds wonderful, and they're having FTF and FTE problems with those two 10mm versions. That "new improved flat-faced trigger" is getting mixed reviews at best.

What do you think about the original M2.0 trigger? The curved hinged one? I was accustomed to crappy Glock triggers, so I LIKE the original M2.0 trigger.

I ask your opinion because my gut says buy the original M2.0 pistol, not the optics-ready upgrade with its bad trigger, snag-prone sights and plastic optics mounting plates.

Most gun fights happen fast-and-close. No sights necessary. If I have to smoke a mall shooter, I guess I'll flank him or make a frontal assault, guns ablaze! =D

Also, check out the different reticles available. There are some pretty cool ones that can help with target acquisition. I made the choice to go all Romeo because I'm all Sig as far as dot guns and its direct mount, but just a single dot. Would like a circle/dot.

 

[2AOK]

....all the optics ready systems suck. It's not the manufacturers fault. The problem is that there are almost a dozen different footprints used by the various RDS manufacturers and the gun manufacturer has no idea which sight you plan to use,.......so [...] they give you a stack of different plates to adapt to all the different footprints. And since they have to include seven or more plates to cover the field, the plates are all cheap junk.

EXCELLENT! The key is to standardize the mounting spec for these optics. All optics manufacturers are going to have to conform to one standard. It happens in other industries.

I don't absolutely need a new pistol right now. Optics mount standardization will happen, and I might just hold off until it does.

Pick the M&P 2.0 in whatever configuration you like and send it out to be milled for the sight you like. It'll sit lower, utilize the original height sights (although often you'll be forced to recut the dovetail and have to use a Glock rear in its place)and most importantly,......it'll stay in place and never move. Your RDS sight line will also be much closer to the original iron sight line as well.

I like it! Except for the prospect of using a junk plastic Glock rear sight. WHEN (not 'if') the optics makers standardize the mounting spec there'll be a lot of firms offering a standardized milling service. Prices should be reasonable then and milling mistakes should be few and far between.

Milling doesn't need to be expensive. These guys do it for $75 or $110 if you need a recut dovetail added.

OPTIC CUTS | DP Custom Works

www.dpcustomworksllc.com

Thanks for the link/information. I'll use it after the optics mounting spec is standardized.

M&P 2.0, mill the slide for RMR, mount Green 507C w/ACSS,....enjoy. That's all I'm gonna do going forward.

Sounds like a good plan.

 

[2AOK]

Having an engineering and product design background, I took one look at the Glock MOS plates and said “no way”. Right now, I have a C & H plate installed. And I’m looking at the new Holosun SCS to eliminate the adapter plate entirely.

It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure out a direct interface between the pistol and RDS is superior. Integrated RDS (perhaps with a replaceable module for reticle and specific features/future proofing) would be even better.

I think all optics manufactures should conform to ONE optics mounting spec for semi-auto pistols. That would make the concept work a lot better.

 

[kaveman]

Optics footprint is standardized,.....it's just that most optics manufacturers fail to use the standard.

The 'standard' for duty size pistols is Trijicon RMR. It's a top rated sight with no features and a battery that requires removal of the sight to change,.....but it's universally recognized as a 'best' choice, although over-priced for what it is imho. You gotta pay for those gov't contracts.

The 'standard' for the micro pistols that are too small for the RMR footprint is Trijicon RMRcc.

If everybody used those two footprints there wouldn't be any problem. Holosun primarily uses RMR and RMRcc. Their 507C/407C is RMR. Their 507K/407K is RMRcc. The only fly in the ointment is the new enclosed emitter sights that are becoming popular. Due to their construction they can't use the RMR footprint because you can't drill two attachment screws through the center of an enclosed emitter, so they have proprietary footprints or you're forced to use an adapter plate.

Trijicon RMR is universally recognized as the most rugged and proven RDS. Holosun is a very close second at half the price with a ton of useful features,....side mounted battery trays, lots of different reticle choices and auto off/shake awake features combined with the somewhat gimmicky solar cell.

 

[Trapper Jim]

For CO games I run a Leupold DPP directly mounted to a milled slide. Iron sights removed. It’s low and it’s strong. Having said that, as with all electronics, we haven’t seen the end of the road on electronic sight systems yet, so the cheesy adapter plates as supplied by our manufacturers are a convenient compromise to a variety of unsure shooters with commitment issues within the market.

I define the presentation as everything you do starting with the equipment you purchase, how you set your rig up, the amount of practice, loading magazines, unloading magazines, charging the gun, reholstering, the decision to present, the drawstoke, the grip, the sight pic, trigger management to firing the shot.

DOTS are not new, just being refined every day. If one does take them to the street, then you have to add battery/glass maintenance, work on eliminating “goose neck dot searching”, and other tasks associated with dots.

If you can’t master irons, you won’t master dots.

 

[ditcherman]

For CO games I run a Leupold DPP directly mounted to a milled slide. Iron sights removed. It’s low and it’s strong. Having said that, as with all electronics, we haven’t seen the end of the road on electronic sight systems yet, so the cheesy adapter plates as supplied by our manufacturers are a convenient compromise to a variety of unsure shooters with commitment issues within the market.

I define the presentation as everything you do starting with the equipment you purchase, how you set your rig up, the amount of practice, loading magazines, unloading magazines, charging the gun, reholstering, the decision to present, the drawstoke, the grip, the sight pic, trigger management to firing the shot.

DOTS are not new, just being refined every day. If one does take them to the street, then you have to add battery/glass maintenance, work on eliminating “goose neck dot searching”, and other tasks associated with dots.

If you can’t master irons, you won’t master dots.

Do you think if you ‘don’t’ master irons you can’t master dots?

 

[gregkl]

I have both a 5 inch M&P 2.0 Pro Series which has a Holosun 509T on it. You can read more about the saga off that configuration here. Simply said buyer beware.

The other is a 2.0 4 inch compact. It now wears a Delta Point micro. I have come to like the DP micro, but it has taken many rounds and much work to reach what I consider to be a reasonably proficient state.

I am knocking on the door of 60, near sighted with lots of astigmatism and some scaring on my left eye. A red dot on pistols was simply magic! It enables a level of precision at distance that I simply can no longer achieve with iron sights. You have to put in work to be proficient, and refine your technique, as a red dot magnifies every flaw.

I gravitated to the Sage Dynamics (Aaron Cowan) videos, which helped me greatly. One point on the M&P, I found I needed to modify my grip to tighten my support hand pinky to get the dot acquisition and recoil control I wanted.

I may move to a larger red dot on the compact one day, but if I do it will be an enclosed optic, and a directly milled slide. I don't know if I will ever trust an OEM optic cut again. At the minimum I'll figure in a steel C&H precision weapons plate if I do.

I also have a 2.0 Compact with a dot on it. I had it milled and would probably go that route if I was to buy another pistol.

OP, my hats off to anyone that can pick up a dot and immediately be a better shooter.

Also, I would advise you look at several dot makers and several dot sizes to help you decide on a specific red dot. If you are the type of person that likes to change things often, then you should buy an optics ready pistol vs having a slide milled.

Oh, and just my opinion, but if I didn't like the oppressor height sights, I'd just run it without irons. Get a good dot, it probably won't fail and if it does in that 1 in 200,000,000th chance that it fails when you need to use it to save your life, you can get good hits just looking through the lens of the dot. Heck, people get good hits putting a piece of tape over the lens!

 

[gregkl]

I'm new to dots on pistols but they're all I've focused on this yr. Have five of them now,....all M&Ps and I've learned plenty. The first thing that I've learned is that I'm not going to buy another optics ready pistol,.....all the optics ready systems suck. It's not the manufacturers fault. The problem is that there are almost a dozen different footprints used by the various RDS manufacturers and the gun manufacturer has no idea which sight you plan to use,.......so they develop a cut and system that doesn't fit ANY dot and then they give you a stack of different plates to adapt to all the different footprints. And since they have to include seven or more plates to cover the field, the plates are all cheap junk. And what you end up with is a dot,.....that sits higher than needed,.....on a crappy plate,......with two interfaces instead of one,.....and stressed screws that are longer than they should be. And then you need suppressor height sights if you want to co-witness.

Don't do any of that. Pick the M&P 2.0 in whatever configuration you like and send it out to be milled for the sight you like. It'll sit lower, utilize the original height sights(although often you'll be forced to recut the dovetail and have to use a Glock rear in its place)and most importantly,......it'll stay in place and never move. Your RDS sight line will also be much closer to the original iron sight line as well. Now you can tumble your gun in a cement mixer and not have to worry about the RDS.

Milling doesn't need to be expensive. These guys do it for $75 or $110 if you need a recut dovetail added.

OPTIC CUTS | DP Custom Works

www.dpcustomworksllc.com

M&P 2.0, mill the slide for RMR, mount Green 507C w/ACSS,....enjoy. That's all I'm gonna do going forward.

I had DP do my milling on my 2.0 Compact. I'm happy with the quality of work. Had them refinish the slide while they had it. They did a good job on that too! Had them stick the Glock sight in the rear dovetail.

I went with the RMR after trying the Holosun. The Holosun was fine but I wanted something that is always on. The battery is supposed to last a few years. I change it on my birthday every year. It's rugged, I treat my possessions with some amount of care, so I'm not concerned with it breaking.

 

[gregkl]

.

What do you think about the original M2.0 trigger? The curved hinged one? I was accustomed to crappy Glock triggers, so I LIKE the original M2.0 trigger.

I ask your opinion because my gut says buy the original M2.0 pistol, not the optics-ready upgrade with its bad trigger, snag-prone sights and plastic optics mounting plates.

Not the person you directed this to but I have been shooting the factory 2.0 trigger for several years now. I tell myself that it is fine and it's the operator not the equipment.

Admittedly, I may not have the optimum trigger pull but does that mean I have to stick with a long take up trigger until I master it?

Or could I install an Apex Forward Set trigger system and have something closer to my 1911 which I shoot better?

I have been working the red dot on the 2.0 for a lot of rounds, but when I pick up my 1911 with irons and run some drills, I score better with it. I blame it on not being able to handle the dot, but could it be the trigger?

I'm going to find out. Next month I'm going to order the Apex set up and try it.

 

[gregkl]

I like it! Except for the prospect of using a junk plastic Glock rear sight. WHEN (not 'if') the optics makers standardize the mounting spec there'll be a lot of firms offering a standardized milling service. Prices should be reasonable then and milling mistakes should be few and far between.

DP installs a metal Glock rear sight when they mill it. It's just the design of the sight that makes it "Glock".

 

[kaveman]

Yeah, and you couldn't hurt the Glock sight even if it was made of putty once it's bang up against the RDS front or back. It's completely protected.

I've got two full size 1.0 .40's I've been wanting to send in to DP but I've been struggling with the decision of where to cut for the rear sight,....ahead of or behind the RDS. I've had the two slide cuts in and out of my cart fifteen times in the last week 'adjusting' the order. Another complicating factor is that both guns already have Trij night sights installed but they've got to be at least 15yrs old so they're not gonna be good much longer anyway. I think I'm going to give up worrying about it and just mill for the Holosun and forget about a rear sight. I trust the dot well enough to not even want a rear sight in the way, let alone pay to put the cut there. The ACSS does exactly what backup irons would do as far as directing you to the dot if you need the help, except it's faster than irons.

The M&P slides are stainless under the finish. Both of my guns that were cut for direct mount have been left bright and you can't even tell once the sights are installed. I see no reason to bother refinishing.

One more thing,.....like the RMR, the Holosun is always on. You CAN turn it off, but why? Battery life is claimed at 50,000hrs, somewhat less at the higher settings. The ACSS Vulcan reticle is a bit of a power hog but I'm sure the battery is still good for over a yr. Leaving it 'always on' still lets it go to sleep after ten minutes of non-movement and the shake awake works so well it's almost impossible to prove to yourself that it's actually working. It wakes up so fast you have to sneak up on it without letting it hear your footsteps. Yeah, the reticle is probably always on while you're carrying it in the holster but at least it's off half the day when you're not running around and saving that battery.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Do you think if you ‘don’t’ master irons you can’t master dots?

Of course not. If dots are all you shoot then hopefully you practice enough to master them. However, they both share fundamentals and a well rounded shooter can do both. Presentation, trigger management, recovery and transition is needed on both. The dot might help you see WHERE you want your bullet hole, but you still gotta do the HOW to get your bullet hole there. Fundamentals are the same but the dot Comes with a little more liability in finding the dot. If you compare scores in the games you will find the top places were in the top places with irons. No dot ever won the Casual Gun Owner a match.