Pistol Mounted Optics, a primer of sorts

[cedartop]

This is an article Dave Spaulding shared that he got from Greg Ellifritz, who I guess saw it by the original authors. I have no idea who he/they are but there is a lot of good, and a little controversial, information here. It could easily go into the Training and tactics sub forum, but there has been a lot of Red Dot activity here lately so I though it might fit.

Pistol Mounted Optics

 

[92FSTech]

Good read, thanks for sharing. I've been giving my Romeo 1 Pro a good workout lately in a wide variety of conditions and lighting environments, and just about everything he said in that write-up rings true.

 

[Tyler-The-Piker]

.

 

[kaveman]

There was a lot of good in there.

 

[cedartop]

Good read, thanks for sharing. I've been giving my Romeo 1 Pro a good workout lately in a wide variety of conditions and lighting environments, and just about everything he said in that write-up rings true.

I am surprisingly happy with my Romeo 1 Pro. It struck me as strange that he put them on the list of reliable optics as they don't really have that reputation. Mine has been great thus far, though it doesn't see much hard use. I mostly just dry fire with that gun and have used it in one class and 2 or 3 matches.

 

[92FSTech]

Jury is still out on mine. I like the large window, and the metal shroud has done a good job of protecting the bezel and keeping the buttons from getting pushed inadvertently.

On the downside, it ate through a battery in less than 6 months, and there was absolutely zero warning it was about to go. I checked it in the mornig when I left for work and it was fine, then happened to look at it again around 3pm and it was dead. Not cool.

Just this week we did a night shoot, and the following morning I checked the dot alignment against the irons like I do every morning before it goes in the holster, and it was off. I took it to the range and shot it, and it was impacting about 5" right at 50 feet. I re-zeroed it and it's held so far, but I'm not sure if the adjuster somehow drifted or if there's something mechanical going on inside the optic because my witness mark on the windage mark wore off. I etched one into the housing with my knife this time, so if it moves again I'll know. If it does move again, it's coming off and going back to Sig.



I will say that before my zero moved, using the dot in the dark was awesome. Some handheld techniques that work well with irons are not great options with the dot, but once you figure out what works, it's really nice to not have to fine-tune iron sights alignment in the dark...just put the dot between your eye and the target and you're good to go.

One other thing I've run into with the Romeo is that the reflection of the sun can cause "ghost dots" on the lens when shooting directly into the setting (or presumably rising) sun. I need to take my RMR and Holosun out and see if they have this same issue, but the first time it happened with the Romeo I picked up the wrong dot and sent three rounds off the target. Now that I know it's an issue under those conditions I can correct for it, but at the time I wasn't expecting it and just took the shot when I saw what looked like the dot.

 

[cedartop]

Jury is still out on mine. I like the large window, and the metal shroud has done a good job of protecting the bezel and keeping the buttons from getting pushed inadvertently.

On the downside, it ate through a battery in less than 6 months, and there was absolutely zero warning it was about to go. I checked it in the mornig when I left for work and it was fine, then happened to look at it again around 3pm and it was dead. Not cool.

Just this week we did a night shoot, and the following morning I checked the dot alignment against the irons like I do every morning before it goes in the holster, and it was off. I took it to the range and shot it, and it was impacting about 5" right at 50 feet. I re-zeroed it and it's held so far, but I'm not sure if the adjuster somehow drifted or if there's something mechanical going on inside the optic because my witness mark on the windage mark wore off. I etched one into the housing with my knife this time, so if it moves again I'll know. If it does move again, it's coming off and going back to Sig.

View attachment 240584

I will say that before my zero moved, using the dot in the dark was awesome. Some handheld techniques that work well with irons are not great options with the dot, but once you figure out what works, it's really nice to not have to fine-tune iron sights alignment in the dark...just put the dot between your eye and the target and you're good to go.

One other thing I've run into with the Romeo is that the reflection of the sun can cause "ghost dots" on the lens when shooting directly into the setting (or presumably rising) sun. I need to take my RMR and Holosun out and see if they have this same issue, but the first time it happened with the Romeo I picked up the wrong dot and sent three rounds off the target. Now that I know it's an issue under those conditions I can correct for it, but at the time I wasn't expecting it and just took the shot when I saw what looked like the dot.

View attachment 240586

All of that sounds familiar. As far as the ghosting pretty much any optic will do it and it seems the clearer the glass the worse it is. Every ones favorite competition optic, the Trijicon SRO, does it pretty badly. I wonder if the enclosed optics are better about that. I don't know because though I have shot some, I don't own any yet and those who do are unwilling to admit there is anything wrong with them other than the fact that they are ugly and huge.

 

[92FSTech]

I don't know because though I have shot some, I don't own any yet and those who do are unwilling to admit there is anything wrong with them other than the fact that they are ugly and huge

Lol ! I've not had a chance to try any of them yet, either. I wanted to get the Romeo 2s instead of the 1s when we bought ours, but they weren't available at the time.

I kind of figured the ghosting would be an issue across the board. I wonder if my RMR is any better as it has very tinted glass, and I'm curious if that would mitigate it at all. I need to get it out in the evening on a sunny day and give it a try.

 

[gregkl]

All of that sounds familiar. As far as the ghosting pretty much any optic will do it and it seems the clearer the glass the worse it is. Every ones favorite competition optic, the Trijicon SRO, does it pretty badly. I wonder if the enclosed optics are better about that. I don't know because though I have shot some, I don't own any yet and those who do are unwilling to admit there is anything wrong with them other than the fact that they are ugly and huge.

Oh, oh. I recently put a SRO on my M&P. So far I really like the big window over the previous RMR.

 

[gregkl]

Some good points for me:
-I need to do the masking tape thing
-Stop following the dot. I had read and have been working on following the dot through recoil and am actually starting to be able to to do that. Makes sense to keep my eyes on the target instead.
- I chose well by going with a larger dot. But I knew that based on owning both small and larger dots. Larger wins out for me.

 

[jwamplerusa]

Stop following the dot. I had read and have been working on following the dot through recoil and am actually starting to be able to to do that. Makes sense to keep my eyes on the target instead.

I am target focused through the dot, but have finally achieved the skill of being aware of the dot and its path during recoil without focusing on it. Once you can achieve awareness of the dot through recoil it really does help in managing grip and recoil control. I have become fond of the Sage Dynamics (RDs recoil diagnostic 3 7 10 15.pdf)

 

[cedartop]

Oh, oh. I recently put a SRO on my M&P. So far I really like the big window over the previous RMR.

Don't get me wrong, I love the SRO and it is what I use on my main match gun, but it is bad about the phantom dot issue.

 

[cedartop]

I am target focused through the dot, but have finally achieved the skill of being aware of the dot and its path during recoil without focusing on it. Once you can achieve awareness of the dot through recoil it really does help in managing grip and recoil control. I have become fond of the Sage Dynamics (RDs recoil diagnostic 3 7 10 15.pdf)

That is the way. For example the 2 second Bill drill, if you can just see a red streak up and down through your target area, you are on to something.

 

[Goodcat]

I am target focused through the dot, but have finally achieved the skill of being aware of the dot and its path during recoil without focusing on it. Once you can achieve awareness of the dot through recoil it really does help in managing grip and recoil control. I have become fond of the Sage Dynamics (RDs recoil diagnostic 3 7 10 15.pdf)

Red dots on guns are a very acquired taste that require seat time. I did a 2000 round Costa course as soon as I did my first red dot, and that helped tremendously, but consistent repetition and draw practice was required beyond that. After year of shooting irons, it just takes that time. I run 3.25 RMR adjustible led, and just got the Acro p2 to try a closed emitter setup. Can’t wait to get out and run it.

 

[gregkl]

That is the way. For example the 2 second Bill drill, if you can just see a red streak up and down through your target area, you are on to something.

A 2-second Bill Drill would be unreal for me.

 

[92FSTech]

A 2-second Bill Drill would be unreal for me.

You and me both! I'm lucky to draw and get one on target in under 2 seconds. Six is crazy talk!

 

[gregkl]

You and me both! I'm lucky to draw and get one on target in under 2 seconds. Six is crazy talk!

Seriously, my draw and first shot is about 1.8 seconds on average. Then I'm looking at .8 or so seconds splits for the next five. I'm working on it though.

 

[ditcherman]

I am surprisingly happy with my Romeo 1 Pro. It struck me as strange that he put them on the list of reliable optics as they don't really have that reputation. Mine has been great thus far, though it doesn't see much hard use. I mostly just dry fire with that gun and have used it in one class and 2 or 3 matches.

Why does it have that reputation?
Because one guy (who is great BTW) drops guns on concrete and when the glass breaks stops testing them and they go on the bad list?

I had (recently traded) a Romeo 1pro with probably 3000 rounds, and have two others that are approaching that between the two of them, all have ran without a hiccup. And I do not run the metal shrouds on them either.

I’ve ran a couple of batteries down by leaving them turned up, but seem to have good luck turning them down while not being carried.

Just wondering if this bad reputation is really all that widespread?

 

[Tactically Fat]

Because one guy (who is great BTW) drops guns on concrete and when the glass breaks stops testing them and they go on the bad list?

Context is key.

Cowan's testing is done in order to separate "duty grade" from the others.

"not up to par for armed professional duty" is not the same thing as "bad" or "bad for EDCers".

 

[cedartop]

Why does it have that reputation?
Because one guy (who is great BTW) drops guns on concrete and when the glass breaks stops testing them and they go on the bad list?

I had (recently traded) a Romeo 1pro with probably 3000 rounds, and have two others that are approaching that between the two of them, all have ran without a hiccup. And I do not run the metal shrouds on them either.

I’ve ran a couple of batteries down by leaving them turned up, but seem to have good luck turning them down while not being carried.

Just wondering if this bad reputation is really all that widespread?

No, not just Aaron. I have a lot of involvement with this stuff outside of here, and the Sig optic reputation has been of less than reliable. Last year when I shot mine in a Dave Spaulding class, he was very interested to see how it worked as he said they seldom see them make it through a class. I think they are similar to Holosun, higher than average problems at first, but improving.