Outdoor Wood Furnace

[Timjoebillybob]

Yeah I thought it was crazy. I do remember finding it for cheaper, but after you figure shipping on 150 gallons of antifreeze it was back up to the crazy price. Now this was quite a while ago and I would hope there are more options available nowadays. If I remember right it was a glycol product.

Edit: I just did a quick search and it looks like a 55 gallon barrel is $1500, so 3 barrels $4500 + shipping. This was just a quick search and I'm sure there is cheaper but even at half price it's still a lot of $. Then you still have the issue of disposal.

Boiler Antifreeze - Michigan, Utah, and Georgia

55 Gallon drum of Boiler Antifreeze solution. Makes up to 275 gallons of boiler antifreeze. Buy online and save today. Ships daily from Atlanta, Georgia; Salt Lake City, Utah; and Taylor, Michigan.

www.chemworld.com

That's nuts. That works out to be almost $30 per gallon. Could you use car antifreeze instead?

 

[churchmouse]

Yeah I thought it was crazy. I do remember finding it for cheaper, but after you figure shipping on 150 gallons of antifreeze it was back up to the crazy price. Now this was quite a while ago and I would hope there are more options available nowadays. If I remember right it was a glycol product.

Edit: I just did a quick search and it looks like a 55 gallon barrel is $1500, so 3 barrels $4500 + shipping. This was just a quick search and I'm sure there is cheaper but even at half price it's still a lot of $. Then you still have the issue of disposal.

Boiler Antifreeze - Michigan, Utah, and Georgia

55 Gallon drum of Boiler Antifreeze solution. Makes up to 275 gallons of boiler antifreeze. Buy online and save today. Ships daily from Atlanta, Georgia; Salt Lake City, Utah; and Taylor, Michigan.

www.chemworld.com

That’s insane. We never paid those prices but alas my last project like this was 12 years ago.

 

[churchmouse]

That's nuts. That works out to be almost $30 per gallon. Could you use car antifreeze instead?

You can.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

You can.

I figured you could, didn't see why not. It would be a heck of a lot cheaper. I wonder about RV antifreeze, non toxic so no worry about disposal. Or at least a lot less.

Zecol RV Antifreeze Drum , 55 Gallon Drum - 10002605

RV Antifreeze protects from freezing down -50º Fahrenheit. There is no mixing of the antifreeze. This antifreeze is non-toxic and tasteless. Use 1 gallon for small units with no tanks, appoximatly 2 gallons for units under 18 feet, use 3 gallons for 18 -

www.ruralking.com

 

[ghitch75]

Why would you choose to run raw after in your system. With the risk of a freeze up that’s a serious game. Just makes no sense.

they eat wood any way and with glycol is is ten times worse......did one for a sawmill up on 40 and we put 600 gallons of in there system.....they had to come in the middle of the night to load it or it would be out by the morning....

it had 9 air to water coils plus 4 brazeplate exchangers to keep the carriage hydo oil from jellying....

but they had plenty of wood

 

[Jaybird1980]

That's nuts. That works out to be almost $30 per gallon. Could you use car antifreeze instead?

Car antifreeze is ethylene glycol instead of the propylene glycol.

I was told specifically not to use ethylene. Back then it would void the manufacturer warranty and it was supposedly very hard on the pumps. It also is worse at transferring heat, and it is way more toxic so disposal is even harder.

I always wanted to find someone that used RV antifreeze because it is propylene glycol. I was never willing to be the guinea pig, because it wasn't that important to me.

And I agree it is nuts, and it has been since I bought mine 20 years ago.

 

[churchmouse]

I see the issues involved now. I guess the loops I worked on were engineered for the load. Thing is with those systems and using outdoor air if you freeze up a coil it costs “MEGA” $ to replace.

 

[Leadeye]

I would need to see the hard numbers on the ethylene/propylene glycol comparison. The only real difference that I can see in this application is the animal toxicity issue. Propylene glycol is considered a green alternative and when I hear that word "green" I start asking for hard numbers.

 

[churchmouse]

I would need to see the hard numbers on the ethylene/propylene glycol comparison. The only real difference that I can see in this application is the animal toxicity issue. Propylene glycol is considered a green alternative and when I hear that word "green" I start asking for hard numbers.

They are both deadly if drank. P-glycol is not sweet or so I am told. Never tried it just pumped it into loop systems.

 

[Leadeye]

Been a steady push to replace PVC laminates with polypropylene as a green alternative. Nothing but aggravation in the factory and other than the toxicity of the monomer vinyl chloride I seen no green benefits. I've explained in meetings that you can't compare the monomer to PVC. Sodium is a highly reactive metal and chlorine a deadly gas, put them together and you use the combination on your french fries.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Been a steady push to replace PVC laminates with polypropylene as a green alternative. Nothing but aggravation in the factory and other than the toxicity of the monomer vinyl chloride I seen no green benefits. I've explained in meetings that you can't compare the monomer to PVC. Sodium is a highly reactive metal and chlorine a deadly gas, put them together and you use the combination on your french fries.

To someone not familiar with chemistry, that sounds like a Biden quote.

 

[Cameramonkey]

They are both deadly if drank. P-glycol is not sweet or so I am told. Never tried it just pumped it into loop systems.

Actually, no. PG is used as a thickener in some soft drinks. So at least in trace amounts its not poisonous. EG is quite deadly though.

The first time I saw it in the ingredients as a teen I freaked out thinking it was trace amounts of antifreeze. LOL

 

[Jaybird1980]

Actually, no. PG is used as a thickener in some soft drinks. So at least in trace amounts its not poisonous. EG is quite deadly though.

The first time I saw it in the ingredients as a teen I freaked out thinking it was trace amounts of antifreeze. LOL

I've seen P-Glycol labeled as food grade before, I just assumed there are different P-Glycols the same as there are different E-Glycols.
It's way out of my area of knowledge.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I've seen P-Glycol labeled as food grade before, I just assumed there are different P-Glycols the same as there are different E-Glycols.
It's way out of my area of knowledge.

I dont think so. Chemically I think they are all the same. Then again, unlike EG, PG's toxicity could be similar to things like ibuprofen; 500mg with a 8oz of water and all is cool... but 8oz of ibuprofen and and your kidneys explode.

 

[Jaybird1980]

I dont think so. Chemically I think they are all the same. Then again, unlike EG, PG's toxicity could be similar to things like ibuprofen; 500mg with a 8oz of water and all is cool... but 8oz of ibuprofen and and your kidneys explode.

You really think all the PG are all the same? I know they have a half dozen or more EG make ups, not sure why it wouldn't be the same for PG. I would imagine they are similar like the EG's are, but different enough for different circumstances.

 

[churchmouse]

I have seen the food grade PG but the stuff we used was not to be poured down the drain.

 

[Cameramonkey]

You really think all the PG are all the same? I know they have a half dozen or more EG make ups, not sure why it wouldn't be the same for PG. I would imagine they are similar like the EG's are, but different enough for different circumstances.

I dont know for sure either. I just know that chemically PG is PG is PG. If they were chemically different, I would expect them to be called different things. (outside of food grade/industrial grade/etc) as a novice, it just doesnt make sense for one molecule of PG to be poisonous while another molecule of PG isnt. If they are different, why arent they called different things? Im not trying to be argumentative, just that as I poke around on the internet I cant find any difference. (other than food grade was more pure, and non food grade could be contaminated with other chemicals )

 

[Jaybird1980]

I dont know for sure either. I just know that chemically PG is PG is PG. If they were chemically different, I would expect them to be called different things. (outside of food grade/industrial grade/etc) as a novice, it just doesnt make sense for one molecule of PG to be poisonous while another molecule of PG isnt. If they are different, why arent they called different things? Im not trying to be argumentative, just that as I poke around on the internet I cant find any difference.

I imagine the Propylene part of it is the same, but there are other things in there also. Those are what I imagine are changing.

Like in EG you have HOAT, P-HOAT, OAT, phosphate free, high silicate, low silicate, silicate free etc. Different systems use different ones depending on how much plastic, aluminum or iron is in the system. Different manufacturers have different requirements.

I just assumed the same would be for PG, I imagine RV antifreeze is different than the stuff they are putting in medicines.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Its probably all PG. Just that the food grad PG is just PG. While RV antifreeze is PG that COULD contain other trace stuff, and other versions of PG could also contain things like lubricants, etc. that are outright poisonous, while still be considered industrial PG.

Just like the red bottles of Heet. On the surface its "pure" alcohol: 99.5% isopropyl alcohol just like the medicinal grade stuff. but instead of .5% water, its .5% "other petrochemicals".