OH: Man in custody sneaks handgun into ER, big struggle, ends up shot

[Airtevron1]

I actually ordered an apex trigger kit. But somewhere on youtube while watching a guy install it he brought up modifying a trigger and how it could potentially be used against you in court. I did a little searching and i dont think its every been used, but i found plenty of people talking about how it could be. So i canceled the order. With the trigger kit and needing the tools to push the rear sight id be right around $200 so may as well spend the extra 400 and get a new toy.

This brings up a thought. If I install a Ghost connector on a Glock and get a smoother rolling break, its modified and Im in trouble. But my stock XDM has a smoother rolling break and un modified so not in trouble?

 

[HoughMade]

Disclosure,

I watched the video and have not read the thread.

These folks showed much more patience and compassiom than I would towards such a person showing up at my place.

Also, I was reminded of why it is important to work on "clearing a jam".

Agreed on all counts.

They did all they could to not kill this guy and he forced their hands.

 

[wtburnette]

Yep.

During which you'll probably lose your house... lose your spouse... lose your kids... lose everything that you once held near and dear.

Very true, but while not fun, you can recover from the above. Death? Not so much. Of course, avoiding both would be the best answer...

 

[Tombs]

What if it's a good shoot that's not readily recognizable as such? What if it's actually questionable? Everyone imagines their shoot as good and instantly recognized as good. Sometimes that's the case. Sometimes it isn't. What narratives can be built around your choice of weapons modifications? How much money in legal fees did a certain dust cover cost before getting the judge to agree to keep it out of the trial? Does a dust cover affect the legality of a shoot?

Be prepared to justify any modifications. Some are easier to justify than others.

I'd be more scared of justifying a comp and RMR than a different trigger shoe.
I just don't see a jury caring as much about that than something that looks scary.

That said I don't mechanically modify serious use firearms, not for legal reasons, but for my own peace of mind in reliability.

 

[kickbacked]

What if it's a good shoot that's not readily recognizable as such? What if it's actually questionable? Everyone imagines their shoot as good and instantly recognized as good. Sometimes that's the case. Sometimes it isn't. What narratives can be built around your choice of weapons modifications? How much money in legal fees did a certain dust cover cost before getting the judge to agree to keep it out of the trial? Does a dust cover affect the legality of a shoot?

Be prepared to justify any modifications. Some are easier to justify than others.

This is why for peace of mind I've chosen to just purchase a firearm with a manufacturers trigger I like. After the dust cover issue, i got rid of a mag i had that had the famous full metal jacket peace sign and slogan on it.

 

[Wanderer]

The officer's support thumb caused the short stroke.

Yep, that appears to be the cause of the malfunction; freeze-framing the video at the point he squeezes the shot off shows his left thumb is directly behind the back of the slide. It occurred to me that this a potential source of malfunctions on all autoloading pistols with rearward reciprocating slides, which is, of course, the vast majority of them today. I guess it's just something we all collectively accept as a trade-off of the design, since a pistol with the reciprocating components being completely internal would likely be considerably bulkier and heavier. Such a malfunction may not have happened with something like a Luger in that same situation, but even then I'm not so sure. You could almost certainly avoid it with one of those weird old "blow-forward" pistol designs, but those come with a host of their own endemic problems, hence why you don't see them today.

 

[Redlinetoys]

This video is hard to watch in more ways than one.

 

[Somemedic]

It seems kinda silly to yell "medic" in an ER

 

[Flight567]

Alright guys, I'm going to take a contratian stance here. I don't think this dude really had a chance once his pistol was found. Even absolute complicity in that situation could very easily have an adrenaline filled officer cranking a round off inducing the rest of the officers to follow suit. As soon as his hand wound up under him, the situation got really complicated.

Definitely a series of poor decisions on his part, but I think that ends similarly 7 times out of 10 even if he complies.

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[BigRed]

Alright guys, I'm going to take a contratian stance here. I don't think this dude really had a chance once his pistol was found. Even absolute complicity in that situation could very easily have an adrenaline filled officer cranking a round off inducing the rest of the officers to follow suit. As soon as his hand wound up under him, the situation got really complicated.

Definitely a series of poor decisions on his part, but I think that ends similarly 7 times out of 10 even if he complies.

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This dude made many poor decisions well before his pistol being found in an ER

 

[bobzilla]

Alright guys, I'm going to take a contratian stance here. I don't think this dude really had a chance once his pistol was found. Even absolute complicity in that situation could very easily have an adrenaline filled officer cranking a round off inducing the rest of the officers to follow suit. As soon as his hand wound up under him, the situation got really complicated.

Definitely a series of poor decisions on his part, but I think that ends similarly 7 times out of 10 even if he complies.

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So you want us to believe that if he’s stated he had a firearm with his hands up not fighting officers 7out if 10 times he gets shot? Sorry. The facts dont support your ********.

 

[Thor]

It wasn't a bad decision day...more like a bad decision decade which led to the end of the line he was on.

 

[Flight567]

So you want us to believe that if he’s stated he had a firearm with his hands up not fighting officers 7out if 10 times he gets shot? Sorry. The facts dont support your ********.

No, actually that's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that the second he started resisting, there were... perhaps 2 choices that lead to his living. one of which isn't even his choice; Having his arm controlled out by baton. Perhaps as long as only the two officers were involved he was fine. Once he fell on his firearm with his hand under his body and the other officers arrived, it was done.

I'm not trying to defend the guy. He clearly made at least a series of very poor decisions that led him to that point. I am giving an alternate opinion which is that he sealed his fate in the initial resistance. The rest of the resistance didn't matter.



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[223 Gunner]

What I have never understood, is why once the gun is found, the Officer starts yelling?
Why couldn't he in a more normal tone, say, "This feels like a firearm, do you have a gun in your pants?"
It just seems to me in all of these incidents, once an officer starts yelling/raising his voice, it creates a situation that becomes more stressful than it already is.
Of course I have never been in that situation, and I am armchair Quaterbacking here.
It does seem to escalate it by getting everyone into a panic, and of course that is when mistakes happen and people get shot.

 

[BugI02]

I believe yelling 'gun' is to let the other officers know that the interaction with the perp just went into the red zone, so they can take appropriate action to defend their own lives as well as the lives of the innocent bystanders who may get caught in the crossfire.

Since, as we have seen, struggles with a resisting arrestee who is armed can turn out unpredictably with a single officer struggling to control a drug-addled (remember, he was found passed out in his car) suspect. I would not fault them if their primary concern was to end the threat so that they and their fellow officers suffered as little risk as possible

If you awakened to the realization there was a fire somewhere in your home, would you turn to your wife and calmly open a discussion on how your house may be burning or would you begin yelling 'Fire' in order to apprise all the occupants of the the danger as quickly as possible so appropriate actions could be taken? Is it not similar to the pilot yelling 'Eject! Eject! Eject!' in order to let the other crew members know what's coming

 

[Nightboard]

What I have never understood, is why once the gun is found, the Officer starts yelling?
Why couldn't he in a more normal tone, say, "This feels like a firearm, do you have a gun in your pants?"
It just seems to me in all of these incidents, once an officer starts yelling/raising his voice, it creates a situation that becomes more stressful than it already is.
Of course I have never been in that situation, and I am armchair Quaterbacking here.
It does seem to escalate it by getting everyone into a panic, and of course that is when mistakes happen and people get shot.

Thats a good calm way to get shot. Once the gun was discovered, what did the perp do? Try to get it out. Yelling "gun" was the fastest way to inform his partner, and everyone around that things had just severely escalated.

The biggest lessons to learn from this: be rough and frisky with your pat searches. Be "officer nuttap without dinnet first".

Also: maintain your firearms! Practice practice practice. I don't carry my 1911. Why? Because in practice it's failed to extract, failed to eject properly, and failed to battery. Wouldn't know these things if i didnt go to the range twice a month.

That officer was at the gates of hell for seconds turned into years. I couldn't see exactly how his firearm failed, but it did fail... and he's very lucky the perp didn't know that.

 

[DadSmith]

What if it's a good shoot that's not readily recognizable as such? What if it's actually questionable? Everyone imagines their shoot as good and instantly recognized as good. Sometimes that's the case. Sometimes it isn't. What narratives can be built around your choice of weapons modifications? How much money in legal fees did a certain dust cover cost before getting the judge to agree to keep it out of the trial? Does a dust cover affect the legality of a shoot?

Be prepared to justify any modifications. Some are easier to justify than others.

Hey BB are police officers held to much higher standards than say a citizen shooting in self-defense or is it about the same in the courts?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Hey BB are police officers held to much higher standards than say a citizen shooting in self-defense or is it about the same in the courts?

Some of this will vary from location to location, who the prosecutor is, what the media picks up, etc. It's supposed to be same-same. I've seen citizens get no-filed in situations I'm sure would have gotten me fired and likely charged. The prosecutor THEN (maybe not NOW) used the idea "they" (meaning non-LEO) are untrained and will do stupid things under stress that might be illegal but are understandable and it wouldn't be a good idea to prosecute.

That was THEN. This is NOW. I don't know the current prosecutor's ideas and I don't screen cases any longer. I would also point out Zimmerman was legally justified and was originally no-filed until the media forced the issue. A perfect example of narrative building overriding the original "if it's a good shoot..." and someone getting drug through the system based solely on that. Time and place and current climate all matter.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

What I have never understood, is why once the gun is found, the Officer starts yelling?

Because once the fight starts, and it probably will, you want everyone to know the fight is over a gun and is therefore more serious then just someone fighting to not go in handcuffs, etc. You want the cop next to you to know, the cop just getting out of his car to know, the bystanders to know, etc.