OH: Man in custody sneaks handgun into ER, big struggle, ends up shot

[JettaKnight]

Sweet Jesus.... Why did this guy not comply? Its so easy, it didn't need to end like this. I'm glad no one else was hurt.

Hard telling, but the guy has a clear record of making bad choices in life. Heck, why start now getting smart?

Not my line of work, but I am sort of baffled that there five or six cops there, and one of them was all by himself rasslin' that guy on the floor while the rest of the stood around pointing guns and tasers? I would think the guy on the floor would have appreciated a couple of the others jumping on board. Or were they all afraid of getting Chauvinized?

From what I see, they all didn't arrive on scene until after the initial gunshot.


Despite it being a black man, shot by a white cop, I'll go out on a limb and say there won't be widespread protest on this one.

 

[Ruger_Ronin]

Few things:

1) The verbally stating your complying while actually not is very common. It's priming onlookers to be sympathetic to the suspect and trying to gain an edge on the cops as the "mental friction" of the mismatch of actions and words takes processing power in the brain to resolve.

2) When someone's arm is under them, that's a *great* use for the baton. Use it as a lever. Slide the baton in the crook of their elbow, put the tip on the ground/bed/sofa, whatever, and lever the arm out. Even really strong doped up guys can be overwhelmed with leverage and you'll get the arm out.

3) Drive stuns are prohibited at more and more places because what you see happen happens. The Taser in drive stun is purely pain compliance. Deploy the probes, get muscles to lock up, maybe a different out come.

4) I get everyone is hyped up. One officer gives commands, everyone else shuts up. One, talking takes mental processing power. You slow your reaction time, not by a lot but measurably, while you're talking. Two, the odds of giving conflicting commands are zero when only one guy is giving commands. As the sergeant on scene, I always designate one guy as 'voice' and it's never me.

5) Got to practice those malfunction drills. Lock the slide back or it stays locked up.

6) I know revolvers will get you kilt in the streetz, but malfunctions in entangled gun fights, especially with hasty grips, happen much more often then regular ol' get a good grip and fire shooting ever does. Revolvers mitigate that.

Well stated.

 

[hpclayto]

Hard telling, but the guy has a clear record of making bad choices in life. Heck, why start now getting smart?


From what I see, they all didn't arrive on scene until after the initial gunshot.


Despite it being a black man, shot by a white cop, I'll go out on a limb and say there won't be widespread protest on this one.

I think you forgot your purple.

 

[Ark]

3) Drive stuns are prohibited at more and more places because what you see happen happens. The Taser in drive stun is purely pain compliance. Deploy the probes, get muscles to lock up, maybe a different out come.

I think at one point the second officer or staff member or whatever gets zapped by the drive stun by accident. I agree, it seems utterly useless in actually disabling his ability to fight.

With so many examples of taser fails I'm really wondering if over-reliance on the magic electric gun is producing unnecessary deaths when in the past they would have just cracked the dude's face with a baton to take the fight out of him. Modern media consumers hate that kind of thing because it's bloody and brutal but, well, so is getting shot 30 times because the magic electric gun failed.

 

[Tombs]

I think at one point the second officer or staff member or whatever gets zapped by the drive stun by accident. I agree, it seems utterly useless in actually disabling his ability to fight.

With so many examples of taser fails I'm really wondering if over-reliance on the magic electric gun is producing unnecessary deaths when in the past they would have just cracked the dude's face with a baton to take the fight out of him. Modern media consumers hate that kind of thing because it's bloody and brutal but, well, so is getting shot 30 times because the magic electric gun failed.

Or you know, just get society to stop having so much empathy for psychotic criminals who want to start shooting people in an ER while the rest of society is doing its best to get them there for their own well being.

It's like trying to fly a plane with a parachute.

 

[Ark]

Or you know, just get society to stop having so much empathy for psychotic criminals who want to start shooting people in an ER while the rest of society is doing its best to get them there for their own well being.

It's like trying to fly a plane with a parachute.

I don't disagree. Our collective sympathy and even admiration for criminals seems limitless these days.

 

[Wolfhound]

What a show.

 

[nipprdog]

Sweet Jesus.... Why did this guy not comply? Its so easy, it didn't need to end like this.

Have you not listened to the narrative of the last few years? It doesn't matter that they are criminals resisting arrest, or wanting to shoot LEs.

 

[bcannon]

"Our"? collective sympathy and even admiration for criminals seems limitless these days.

I personally have zero admiration and even less sympathy for these criminal minded dips. Glad there were no others injured and the perp was stopped. Dead, sucks, but by his own decisions.

 

[flatlander]

Only thing I'll add is during the 2 searches. It APPEARS as though the guy had the gun down by his junk. A lot of people will miss things there due to the location. They were trying to get him in the ambulance for treatment so it was not a great search. Additionally, when the round was found, the officer DID seem to have his curiosity raised. While continuing the search he did alert his partner when he looked around his back.

I have found cell phones, drugs, lighters and 1 gun that were missed by AT LEAST 4 searches. Bad bad things do happen when people get complacent.

Glad the police were ok and the oxygen thief achieved room temperature. It could have been a whole lot worse.

 

[KittySlayer]

It seemed like the woman cop in the hallway that was working the taser had her partner in her line of fire early on when she was holding her gun. When bullets started flying if he shifted to his left she would have plugged her partner.

With regards to the gun location I recall the knucklehead complaining about someone grabbing his balls during one of the searches.

 

[kickbacked]

Makes me feel a little worried about the m&p on me.
Sucks for his kids birthday.

 

[DeadeyeChrista'sdad]

Not protest worthy. The only armchair quarterbacking I can do is maybe he should've been in cuffs as soon as they found the cartridge. All things considered, the good guys went home, albeit a little bit mentally banged up, and the dumbass went home... to Jesus. Or whatever

 

[Tombs]

Makes me feel a little worried about the m&p on me.
Sucks for his kids birthday.

While I'm no fan of the M&P, if you go wrestling with anyone while firing a handgun, it's going to malfunction.
Doesn't matter what handgun it is, that's just the nature of having a slide.

That said there are standoff devices that you can install if the firearm has a rail. It just protects the front of the slide from being knocked out of battery during a contact shot.

 

[Leadeye]

I think at one point the second officer or staff member or whatever gets zapped by the drive stun by accident. I agree, it seems utterly useless in actually disabling his ability to fight.

With so many examples of taser fails I'm really wondering if over-reliance on the magic electric gun is producing unnecessary deaths when in the past they would have just cracked the dude's face with a baton to take the fight out of him. Modern media consumers hate that kind of thing because it's bloody and brutal but, well, so is getting shot 30 times because the magic electric gun failed.

I wonder how the voltage and power levels of that equipment were figured out? Having accidentally been on the wrong end of an agricultural version of those, it stunned, hurt and burned.

 

[kickbacked]

While I'm no fan of the M&P, if you go wrestling with anyone while firing a handgun, it's going to malfunction.
Doesn't matter what handgun it is, that's just the nature of having a slide.

That said there are standoff devices that you can install if the firearm has a rail. It just protects the front of the slide from being knocked out of battery during a contact shot.

Im no fan of it either. I've never had reliability problems with it. i just dont like the trigger. Because of the current firearm market, i havent been able to replace it.

 

[Tombs]

I wonder how the voltage and power levels of that equipment were figured out? Having accidentally been on the wrong end of an agricultural version of those, it stunned, hurt and burned.

With testing. The thing to understand here is that a taser is not going to achieve its signature effect with a contact stun like that. That just shocks you, it doesn't lock up your nervous system. Need the prongs to do that.

They're pretty elaborate systems engineering wise to achieve the right waveform, frequency, and voltage levels to do what they do.

The cost of them is also absurd because taser brand owns the market entirely. So you end up with the standard police taser costing as much as an upper end AR15, and the batteries aren't rechargeable and are only good for a few shots, while being over $50 a pop.

 

[kickbacked]

I think at one point the second officer or staff member or whatever gets zapped by the drive stun by accident. I agree, it seems utterly useless in actually disabling his ability to fight.

With so many examples of taser fails I'm really wondering if over-reliance on the magic electric gun is producing unnecessary deaths when in the past they would have just cracked the dude's face with a baton to take the fight out of him. Modern media consumers hate that kind of thing because it's bloody and brutal but, well, so is getting shot 30 times because the magic electric gun failed.

Im not really sure its a taser fail. My leo friend hit me with the taser (not the projectile). I am a bigger guy, its not something that made me want to cooperate. It didnt lock me up, it did the opposite. It made me try to get away as quickly as possible. Theres no thinking about stopping what you're doing, only getting away from the source of the pain.

Id probably describe it like someone holding a flame to your hand and telling you not to move your hand.

 

[Tombs]

Im not really sure its a taser fail. My leo friend hit me with the taser (not the projectile). I am a bigger guy, its not something that made me want to cooperate. It didnt lock me up, it did the opposite. It made me try to get away as quickly as possible. Theres no thinking about stopping what you're doing, only getting away from the source of the pain.

Id probably describe it like someone holding a flame to your hand and telling you not to move your hand.

Read my post just above, you'll see why.

 

[dmarsh8]

I agree with blue eyes, that sometimes the old fashioned pain compliance methods work the best (baton, strikes, armbars etc). There are plenty of tactics to choose from. I think just like with cell phones and many other conveniences, it's easy to get caught up with the gadget instead of solving the problem with good ole pencil and paper. Sometimes it's better to just forget all the fancy gadgets and get it done as effectively and efficiently as possible. With all that said, events lately show just how important training is because stress increases the probability of unwanted issues/results. Lastly, physical struggles are never as easy in real life as they would seem from the keyboard and computer screen, especially with drugs in play.