New Federal PUNCH .22LR Self Defense ammo.

[BehindBlueI's]

Nobody likes to bleed no matter the size of the hole or holes.

That's the assumption of the psychological stop. It works when it works, which for random violence is pretty often. But when it doesn't and you need a physical stop and need it quickly, you're screwed.

Would you like to hear about the random altercation at the auto parts store where the aggressor was cut *very* deeply three times, was literally pouring blood to the point he eventually passed out, but *did not notice he was cut until a witness pointed it out to him*? That he was able to continue his aggression until he decided he should leave on his own before police arrived?

Trite sayings didn't seem to matter to him, and it's not an isolated incident. Those of you who decide to carry a .22 will probably be fine, like I said so will most people with empty fire extinguishers, but you've voluntarily ceded a lot of ground if you ever actually need a physical stop.

 

[avboiler11]

Conceding that a 22LR is less capable as a defensive round, regardless of ammo, than a larger caliber....

IMO all handguns suck at "physical stops" unless you are proficient with the "Failure To Stop" drill...but hey, carbine carry is frowned upon.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Conceding that a 22LR is less capable as a defensive round, regardless of ammo, than a larger caliber....

IMO all handguns suck at "physical stops" unless you are proficient with the "Failure To Stop" drill...but hey, carbine carry is frowned upon.

Yes, if you suck and can't hit it doesn't matter. Carry a starter pistol, the noise will be just as effective. Arguably, a Hollywood blank (they make a lot more muzzle flash) will be even more effective for the psychological stop.

The difference is with recommended caliber/ammo selection if you do your part, it will do it's part. The .22 and .25 can't be counted on to do the same. If you shoot someone in the face with a .38 wadcutter, it's not bouncing off teeth and has a much higher chance of getting through the skull. If you send a 180gr .40 through someone's forearm it'll keep going into their torso. If you hit someone in the heart with an expanded hollow point you start a much shorter timer to incapacitation than a .22 placed in the exact same spot. The sole benefit to a .22 is if that's literally all your hands can take it's better than nothing in most circumstances. And cost, I suppose.

 

[ajeandy]

There's no optimizing .22 for self defense except by the marketing department. Will it break bone? Will it reliably penetrate the front of the skull? Will it resist deflection by teeth and round bone? Will it defeat light intermediate barriers and make accepted penetration requirements? Will 27gr vs 40gr do any of that better?

If you're carrying a .22 handgun you've already decided to rely very heavily on psychological stops and given up a lot of territory in terminal ballistics. "Optimizing" isn't going to change that in any meaningful way, with the one exception of reliability.

Bingo, marketing 101.

 

[tbhausen]

I think we can all agree that the only gun a .22 is better than is no gun at all. I did buy a Ruger LCP II in .22 LR for those times when I just can’t carry something better. So I’m interested in this ammo only because, despite its inherent shortcomings, it might be the best of its caliber for defensive use. If anybody knows of any ballistic testing that’s been conducted I guess this would be a good place to post the results.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

I think we can all agree that the only gun a .22 is better than is no gun at all. I did buy a Ruger LCP II in .22 LR for those times when I just can’t carry something better. So I’m interested in this ammo only because, despite its inherent shortcomings, it might be the best of its caliber for defensive use. If anybody knows of any ballistic testing that’s been conducted I guess this would be a good place to post the results.

Did you watch BT's video in the first post? It does have some gel tests in it.

 

[tbhausen]

Did you watch BT's video in the first post? It does have some gel tests in it.

Yeah, I forgot to put the word “independent” in there thanks!

Edit: I thought that video was from Federal. I see it’s not, thanks again.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Yeah, I forgot to put the word “independent” in there thanks!

Edit: I thought that video was from Federal. I see it’s not, thanks again.

Ah okay, gotcha!

 

[johntheplinker]

Thing about gel test is that they provide a consistent media for multiple tests. Bad thing is the have absolutely no relationship to the real world. Nice, soft, consistent material with nothing hard to tear a bullet apart. Now, what vital parts of the body don't have at least some degree of hardening? Skull around the brain; breastbone, ribs and spinal column around the heart, lungs and spine. IIRC one of the police officers here (BBI?) told of a call he was on where a guy got popped in the forehead with a .25 and basically popped the bullet out like a zit. How many tests have made certain bullets look like the hammer of Thor but when used in the real world were complete failures?
If I had absolutely, positively, no other choice than to use a 22 I'd be loading it with either CCI Velocitors or those heavy Aguila SSS loads.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I think we can all agree that the only gun a .22 is better than is no gun at all. I did buy a Ruger LCP II in .22 LR for those times when I just can’t carry something better. So I’m interested in this ammo only because, despite its inherent shortcomings, it might be the best of its caliber for defensive use. If anybody knows of any ballistic testing that’s been conducted I guess this would be a good place to post the results.

The .380 version is the same size, or slightly smaller depending on magazine, and less than 1oz heavier fully loaded. Any testing will be amateurs doing it on their own, but my guess is it'll do poorly even compared to heavier .22 loads. Lighter is not going to be better. If you've got arthritis or something to the point you can't handle a .380, do what you have to do. However absent physical limitations there's nowhere you can carry a LCP .22 you can't also carry a LCP .380. I know which I'd rather arm my enemies with.

Thing about gel test is that they provide a consistent media for multiple tests. Bad thing is the have absolutely no relationship to the real world. Nice, soft, consistent material with nothing hard to tear a bullet apart. Now, what vital parts of the body don't have at least some degree of hardening? Skull around the brain; breastbone, ribs and spinal column around the heart, lungs and spine. IIRC one of the police officers here (BBI?) told of a call he was on where a guy got popped in the forehead with a .25 and basically popped the bullet out like a zit. How many tests have made certain bullets look like the hammer of Thor but when used in the real world were complete failures?
If I had absolutely, positively, no other choice than to use a 22 I'd be loading it with either CCI Velocitors or those heavy Aguila SSS loads.

Maybe. I've had a guy bruised by a .25 after it penetrated his boot. A guy who had a tooth cracked by a .22. A few failed suicides with both. Plenty of bad guys shot by other bad guys or the occasionally good guy who didn't seem terribly bothered. If I had to kill myself with a .22, I'd use it try and rob a gun store where I knew the employees were armed... The .25 is also a terrible suicide gun. Even the 'good' ones often flopped longer then I'd care to. Honestly, I don't remember them all at this point, or even the majority of them. I do tend to remember the magnum caliber suicides. They are dramatic.

However, *proper* gel testing does have a correlation to the real world, but you need the entire battery of tests. Just shooting into bare gel is something but far from complete and in that regard you are correct. Add in the windshield test, which happens to mimic bone strikes pretty well, and the rest of the FBI battery and you do get a correlation in that bullets that do well there also do well in the real world. Clear gel or incomplete data is fun but ultimately not worth much, and you are correct that it doesn't indicate how a bullet will react to bone strikes, ribs at an angle, etc.

 

[t-squared]

Maybe they shoulda named it Pinch....

 

[ajeandy]

I think we can all agree that the only gun a .22 is better than is no gun at all. I did buy a Ruger LCP II in .22 LR for those times when I just can’t carry something better. So I’m interested in this ammo only because, despite its inherent shortcomings, it might be the best of its caliber for defensive use. If anybody knows of any ballistic testing that’s been conducted I guess this would be a good place to post the results.

Why take the .22 LR over the .380? Just curious

 

[ajeandy]

The .380 version is the same size, or slightly smaller depending on magazine, and less than 1oz heavier fully loaded. Any testing will be amateurs doing it on their own, but my guess is it'll do poorly even compared to heavier .22 loads. Lighter is not going to be better. If you've got arthritis or something to the point you can't handle a .380, do what you have to do. However absent physical limitations there's nowhere you can carry a LCP .22 you can't also carry a LCP .380. I know which I'd rather arm my enemies with.

Not to mention if you're super concerned about weight / recoil you could always load it up with the Liberty Civil Defense 50gr .380 ammo which comes out of the barrel close to 1500 FPS. It may not penetrate as well as something like Federal Hydra-Shok Deep or Lehigh Defense 68gr Xtreme Defender but it will have the least amount of recoil and still perform better than a .22 LR

 

[tbhausen]

Why take the .22 LR over the .380? Just curious

Primarily because I can afford to practice with it LOL

I also like the idea of AIWB it because it has a safety. I really like the way they’ve implemented the safety on this gun. If they make one in .380 like this I will buy it.

 

[thompal]

Just think if you shot 6 22lr rds from a 3" barrel into a bad guy it adds up to the same power as one 9mm rd.

You'd have to assume that your pistol would feed all 6, and they would all go bang. With a .22, neither of those is guaranteed.

 

[Route 45]

Official test footage. Maybe.

 

[DadSmith]

Official test footage. Maybe.

What is that? I want one....

 

[churchmouse]

I wonder how easily you can get 11 of these to fit into an ear canal...

I was waiting.......

 

[DadSmith]

You'd have to assume that your pistol would feed all 6, and they would all go bang. With a .22, neither of those is guaranteed.

Well with CCI mini mags or stingers, or their new segmented rds so far I've not had one problem.

I have a friend she choose the lcp2 22lr. I wanted her to get at least a 38 special revolver, or a 380acp.
I told her to buy CCI ammunition since imo it is much more reliable. She is now on the lookout for a more powerful firearm. I told her she needed something with more power before she bought the lcp2 22lr. However, when she went to get her permit the local police officer advised her to get something more powerful also. So now she is on the lookout for her 2nd handgun. She is the same person as the one in My liberal friend thread. She actually has done a 180 from what she use to believe. The woke scales came off of her eyes and she now sees the real world. What "woke" her up was the riots and the defund the police movement.

 

[Twangbanger]

Aw geez...Ppl please listen to me: the CCI CB loads are 29 grains at 710 fps in a rifle. If you shoot them into 1" pine boards, they cannot even bury themselves in the wood. They will routinely leave the ass-end of the bullet sticking out of the board.

And these new Federal loads are only marketed at 300fps faster than that, when used in a pistol as intended!

I bring this up, because I used to try to use the 29 grain CB loads to hunt squirrels, to keep quiet in the woods and not spook them. You cannot believe the number of squirrels I was UNABLE TO RECOVER after hitting called shots into vital areas with that ammo. Even on the ones I recovered, they do not leave an exit wound. ON A SQUIRREL. The squirrel would fall out of the tree and lay down for a minute or so, then regain mobility and take off. I finally had to go back to using standard velocity 40 grain loads, to assure an exit wound and be able to actually lay hands on the squirrel. And remember, 40 grains performs a lot differently than 29. You cannot judge a 29 grain load by the same standards as the 40 grain.

This Federal sham is purely made possible by people not growing up in the country anymore. If you grew up hunting or shooting feral animals with a .22...there is no way you could EVER think this was a good idea. It is really surprising how INeffective even high-velocity .22lr is out of a rifle-length barrel, on 10~20 lb. animals. I saw so many cats, coons, and others in that size range drilled in the boiler room with .22lr put on burners and scream away, it prompted me to get a .22 WMR rifle for that purpose.

However, just the slight step up to a .22 Mag made all the difference in the world. Out of a rifle length barrel, 22 Mag is coincidentally about .38 special power level. It can break both shoulders on a dog-size animal; nothing less will. We had a significant feral dog problem where I grew up, and the .22WMR sent them over the rainbow bridge spectacularly. .22lr is just a nuisance for animals that size. And you want to use it out of a PISTOL? For DEFENSE?

.22lr out of a pistol-length barrel will not reliably leave an exit wound on animals the size of a cat, or sometimes even a squirrel. If you don't believe me, and are thinking about using a .22lr pistol for defense, you could do yourself a service by spending some time in your garage with pine boards or phone books. Get out your ear pro and tape measure, and prepare to be underwhelmed.

If you haven't had the experience of killing lots of small animals with a .22lr, I have to tell you, you are at a distinct disadvantage here. Get the pine boards and do your homework. Do not buy something just because it's sexy.