"My 5 Shot Snubby is Good Enough"

[BehindBlueI's]

The snub was designed as a belly gun so many let it rest right there. I believe the “they are not very accurate” label comes from a comfortable easy way to not put in the time to build a skill set.

If one carry’s the gun, then carry the responsibility to know how to use it beyond what some rag writer or keyboard commando tells you.

We practice at 20 to 25 yards with our JFrames all the time. Muzzle targets don’t take much of a skill set.

Like...work for it? Weird. Next you'll tell me that people can shoot a TDA accurately. ItSTwoDiffErenTTriggERpuLLs!!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I think that over-penetration is much less of a concern for carry type handguns, than misses.

I assume you aren't making some argument that bullets that over penetrate are somehow more accurate, so does the bigger danger of a miss somehow nullify the danger of over penetration? In an urban environment, I'm fairly concerned with both. Pass throughs are rarely fatal, but I can assure you they can still injure and do sometimes result in an extra person dying.

 

[BE Mike]

I assume you aren't making some argument that bullets that over penetrate are somehow more accurate, so does the bigger danger of a miss somehow nullify the danger of over penetration? In an urban environment, I'm fairly concerned with both. Pass throughs are rarely fatal, but I can assure you they can still injure and do sometimes result in an extra person dying.

No, you assumed incorrectly.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

No, you assumed incorrectly.

Bullets that over penetrate are also more accurate?

 

[Lodge]

Friends of mine carry: .357 snub nose, .380 Ruger, .357 Sig Glock, .45 ACP Glock, 9mm Taurus and on and on.
Makes absolutely no difference to me what they choose to carry.
I carry .357 Sig Sig. I would like to think that doesn't matter to them. Or anyone else.

IF the situation would arise, can they use it effectively? Will they use it effectively?
And that only truly matters to me IF they're with me and the situation comes up.

 

[Lodge]

Over penetration, under penetration, big slow bullets, small fast bullets, mouse gun, hand cannon... the multitude of studies are exhaustive. The detailed procedures of conducting the studies are exemplary. The only arguable points are that of personal philosophy. With 8.5 billion people on the planet, there's a lot of personal philosophies.

 

[BE Mike]

Bullets that over penetrate are also more accurate?

I'm sorry, I don't get what you are driving at, unless you just want to start an argument.

 

[cedartop]

I'm sorry, I don't get what you are driving at, unless you just want to start an argument.

I have learned to speak pretty good BBI and I didn't get it either. I thought it was pretty clear what you meant. We should be more worried about where the bullets go of people who missed, than those that found their mark and over penetrated because there sure seem to be a lot more of the former. I mean what with 20% hit rates and the like.

 

[Trapper Jim]

I have learned to speak pretty good BBI and I didn't get it either. I thought it was pretty clear what you meant. We should be more worried about where the bullets go of people who missed, than those that found their mark and over penetrated because there sure seem to be a lot more of the former. I mean what with 20% hit rates and the like.

Case in point. Of all the verbiage, theories, scenario dreaming, amateur gunsmithing, rails dots, comps, and Buick ports being handled by the millions of gunowners, one would think that the firing ranges would be crowded with the required practice needed for responsible target acquisition.

Not so much. So yes, ballistics are useless without a hit. Not many targets have been neutralized by the sound of gunfire.

See you on the range.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm sorry, I don't get what you are driving at, unless you just want to start an argument.

I just don't get your point. Of course misses are dangerous and I don't think there's any controversy on the topic. What's the relevance to concerns of over penetration? One doesn't effect the other and simply saying "but misses are worse" doesn't change that unless you are making some connection. It's like we're talking about seat belt use and you come in and say but high blood pressure causes more deaths. What's the relevance? Am I not supposed to be concerned with problem A because unrelated problem B also exists?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Case in point. Of all the verbiage, theories, scenario dreaming, amateur gunsmithing, rails dots, comps, and Buick ports being handled by the millions of gunowners, one would think that the firing ranges would be crowded with the required practice needed for responsible target acquisition.

Not so much. So yes, ballistics are useless without a hit. Not many targets have been neutralized by the sound of gunfire.

See you on the range.

Careful, you're getting close to "don't suck" and that is egotism at work.

I will somewhat disagree with "not many targets have been neutralized by the sound..." in that misses absolutely have broken off aggressive behavior by attackers. Bad guys surrender or flee both the police and civilian defenders when merely confronted with a gun or a discharge without a hit. You could win roughly 1/3 of random street encounters with a realistic blank gun. Probably more if we knew how many unreported instances of "display only" broke off an attempt robbery, etc. Obviously we shouldn't *rely* on that to occur, but it does occur fairly frequently.

 

[cedartop]

Careful, you're getting close to "don't suck" and that is egotism at work.

I will somewhat disagree with "not many targets have been neutralized by the sound..." in that misses absolutely have broken off aggressive behavior by attackers. Bad guys surrender or flee both the police and civilian defenders when merely confronted with a gun or a discharge without a hit. You could win roughly 1/3 of random street encounters with a realistic blank gun. Probably more if we knew how many unreported instances of "display only" broke off an attempt robbery, etc. Obviously we shouldn't *rely* on that to occur, but it does occur fairly frequently.

As you know we roughly breakdown "stops" into two categories, phycological and physiological. The second category with sub categories, blood loss/ pressure drop, spine damage, brain stem (off switch). Some people stop after a minor injury (phycological) while others you have to over kill. Would you put no shots fired under phycological stop, or is that category only for shots and hits that wouldn't actually stop if the person didn't tell themselves it was over?

 

[BE Mike]

I just don't get your point. Of course misses are dangerous and I don't think there's any controversy on the topic. What's the relevance to concerns of over penetration? One doesn't effect the other and simply saying "but misses are worse" doesn't change that unless you are making some connection. It's like we're talking about seat belt use and you come in and say but high blood pressure causes more deaths. What's the relevance? Am I not supposed to be concerned with problem A because unrelated problem B also exists?

Well, we are discussing defensive use of handguns. Please keep that in mind. With commonly carried pistols, in commonly used calibers, there is a much less likelihood of "pass throughs" and injuring an innocent bystander than there is of an errant shot. Even so, it is good practice to be aware of what is behind one's intended target. My point is we who carry a handgun for self-defense should put training and marksmanship as the highest priority. Hope this comes through among the fog of "more accurate ammo, seat belts and high blood pressure".

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Well, we are discussing defensive use of handguns. Please keep that in mind. With commonly carried pistols, in commonly used calibers, there is a much less likelihood of "pass throughs" and injuring an innocent bystander than there is of an errant shot. Even so, it is good practice to be aware of what is behind one's intended target. My point is we who carry a handgun for self-defense should put training and marksmanship as the highest priority. Hope this comes through among the fog of "more accurate ammo, seat belts and high blood pressure".

Gotcha. We're on the same page, the "I think that over-penetration is much less of a concern for carry type handguns, than misses." is what got me asking the questions I did. If you'd just presented as 'misses are dangerous and backstop is important' I'm 100% onboard. Just the way you phrased it, and that it was plugged in after comments about .454 Casull as a carry gun, that you were minimizing that particular risk because other risks are more significant.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

As you know we roughly breakdown "stops" into two categories, phycological and physiological. The second category with sub categories, blood loss/ pressure drop, spine damage, brain stem (off switch). Some people stop after a minor injury (phycological) while others you have to over kill. Would you put no shots fired under phycological stop, or is that category only for shots and hits that wouldn't actually stop if the person didn't tell themselves it was over?

To me there's 3 sub-categories of the psychological stop:

1) Display only
2) Discharge with no hits
3) Discharge with hits that were not a mechanical stop (mechanical can be further broken down, such as fatal vs major bone breaks, etc)


#1 is full of unknowns because we just don't know how many times it happens but isn't reported. Incidents that aren't reported obviously don't make my stats.

#2 is probably under reported as well. Interestingly, in my current role I'm doing more with stats in an official capacity and I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that self-defense shootings as a whole are under reported because many of them are between criminals and the "good guy" doesn't report the shooting. If *you* shoot a robber you'll likely call it in. If a guy goes to sell dope, the other guy tries to rob him, and the dealer injures or kills the robber that's still self defense. But it's often not reported or provable, so it's just a dead guy in the street or a shot guy showing up at the hospital with a didntseenuffin story. Apologies for the tangent to a tangent.


#3 is the hardest by far to track reliably even when all else is known, if the person eventually dies. A hit in the meaty part of the thigh they never die from but stopped doing the thing is obviously psychological, but what about the one that ruptures major blood vessels in the liver and they wobble and go down then die. How do you know if they *could* have continued on for another X seconds but gave up vs the blood pressure dropped so rapidly they physically could not.

 

[cedartop]

To me there's 3 sub-categories of the psychological stop:

1) Display only
2) Discharge with no hits
3) Discharge with hits that were not a mechanical stop (mechanical can be further broken down, such as fatal vs major bone breaks, etc)


#1 is full of unknowns because we just don't know how many times it happens but isn't reported. Incidents that aren't reported obviously don't make my stats.

#2 is probably under reported as well. Interestingly, in my current role I'm doing more with stats in an official capacity and I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that self-defense shootings as a whole are under reported because many of them are between criminals and the "good guy" doesn't report the shooting. If *you* shoot a robber you'll likely call it in. If a guy goes to sell dope, the other guy tries to rob him, and the dealer injures or kills the robber that's still self defense. But it's often not reported or provable, so it's just a dead guy in the street or a shot guy showing up at the hospital with a didntseenuffin story. Apologies for the tangent to a tangent.


#3 is the hardest by far to track reliably even when all else is known, if the person eventually dies. A hit in the meaty part of the thigh they never die from but stopped doing the thing is obviously psychological, but what about the one that ruptures major blood vessels in the liver and they wobble and go down then die. How do you know if they *could* have continued on for another X seconds but gave up vs the blood pressure dropped so rapidly they physically could not.

Thank you.

 

[BugI02]

I'm sorry, I don't get what you are driving at, unless you just want to start an argument.

That's not BBI's style

 

[BE Mike]

That's not BBI's style

We're good. Sometimes trying to be concise in print doesn't get my point across to everyone.

 

[LtScott14]

I keep my snub 38 Spec handy in a coat pocket, even with a G45-5 holstered on my hip.

Sometimes I carry my S&W M10-4in 38Spec when I'm thinking Jim Cirrilio may be overwatching. Just carry. Spare ammo too. Mags or speedloaders.

 

[tackdriver]

... The old timer guns guys will often carry something like the p365 series or whatever.

...

Now that was an interesting observation that got me curious. I never would have made the connection between old school and a P365.

However, I think I'm in that demographic. My 'go-to' handgun for 30 years was the Browning Hi-Power. I checked out a P365 as a curiosity, and now I've got 3 of them. (2 are the XL).

Not sure how you got there, but......... Hmmmmm