Micro Alternative & Renewable Energy

[kaveman]

Met with Ian on Tuesday and picked up the 6000T and a combiner box. I was pretty delirious after having driven for two days but he was still helpful answering all the newbie questions I could remember to ask. I did learn that my battery stack is going to be the next hurdle in the system. I can put up more panels to collect power throughout a longer day and maximize on cloudy days but my input amperage to the three battery stack is(for now)my most limiting factor. The batteries I(will)have won't want to be charged with the full 100a the Growatt will be putting out. Building up a bi-directional over-stuffed array seems like the best option now to get max hrs of juice per day. More batteries in the stack would allow me to pour more juice but those things are still pretty expensive.

Ian suggests limiting the charge input to 20a/battery so that already reduces the charge controller down to 60% capacity. Still need to do some research with these specific batteries but if I'm wagging my math right(this is a 48v system), I'm only feeding about 3kw into the battery stack(20a x 50vdc+/- charge current = 1kw/battery,.......x3).

 

[kaveman]

OK, so moving on to the solar array,......

Ian bumped me up to a 6 into 1 combiner to help me utilize the large number of solar panels I already have. Max input voltage is 250vdc so I can put 6 of my 36.4v panels in each string. Times six strings that creates a 36 panel array. My panels are rated at 290w so that's 10,440 watts but since they're used panels I whack 5-10% right off the top so on a 'perfect' day the array might put out somewhere between 9 and 10kw. I can only use 3kw for charging so I'm thinking of building the array in a bi-directional manner, 18 panels(three strings of six)facing roughly SE and 18 panels facing roughly SW. That'll flatten the curve and spread the hourly collection more evenly throughout the day. And I'll still be getting max charge amps even on cloudy days when the panels are only putting out 30%.

I met with Ian around 2PM on a cloudy day. He has 30kw of panels installed and he pulled up his production for the day,......4.5kwh total. He should have had closer to 100kwh by then by my math but it had snowed all morning. I didn't see his panels but I assume they were on the back side of the building as that would have been the southern face. Depending on the slope of the roof he may still have been pretty covered. Not sure what kind of output you'd get on a purely 'cloudy' day,.........10%, 20%, 30%? I really don't know.

His stock of items wasn't as bad as I'd feared. He still had pallets of product to sell although I have no idea how much of what I saw had already been spoken for. He did point to a spot on the floor where his inventory was stacked last week and I'd say he's down 30% from there. And he did say he had another truck already on the road and due in any day,......and I think more jammed up at the port but already onshore. It's anything further up the supply chain that's sketchy. I still think it's a good idea to grab anything you might need now if you can find it in stock. I believe the next couple of years are going to be a time of back-order and waiting lists.

 

[JeepHammer]

OK, so moving on to the solar array,......

Ian bumped me up to a 6 into 1 combiner to help me utilize the large number of solar panels I already have. Max input voltage is 250vdc so I can put 6 of my 36.4v panels in each string. Times six strings that creates a 36 panel array. My panels are rated at 290w so that's 10,440 watts but since they're used panels I whack 5-10% right off the top so on a 'perfect' day the array might put out somewhere between 9 and 10kw. I can only use 3kw for charging so I'm thinking of building the array in a bi-directional manner, 18 panels(three strings of six)facing roughly SE and 18 panels facing roughly SW. That'll flatten the curve and spread the hourly collection more evenly throughout the day. And I'll still be getting max charge amps even on cloudy days when the panels are only putting out 30%.

I met with Ian around 2PM on a cloudy day. He has 30kw of panels installed and he pulled up his production for the day,......4.5kwh total. He should have had closer to 100kwh by then by my math but it had snowed all morning. I didn't see his panels but I assume they were on the back side of the building as that would have been the southern face. Depending on the slope of the roof he may still have been pretty covered. Not sure what kind of output you'd get on a purely 'cloudy' day,.........10%, 20%, 30%? I really don't know.

His stock of items wasn't as bad as I'd feared. He still had pallets of product to sell although I have no idea how much of what I saw had already been spoken for. He did point to a spot on the floor where his inventory was stacked last week and I'd say he's down 30% from there. And he did say he had another truck already on the road and due in any day,......and I think more jammed up at the port but already onshore. It's anything further up the supply chain that's sketchy. I still think it's a good idea to grab anything you might need now if you can find it in stock. I believe the next couple of years are going to be a time of back-order and waiting lists.

So how is the install going?
Are you still doing research or have you started the install?

Really egear to hear about how it's going!

 

[kaveman]

Unless the world goes Mad Max I'm still yrs away from the install. I just want the parts here in case it goes quick.

I don't even really want to do the install at the house I'm at now. Batteries won't ship to me before December at the earliest. Don't have any racking figured out for the panels. I'm still just learning about and accumulating 'parts'.

 

[JeepHammer]

If you have any prior experience with using lead acid batteries for powering a structure (shop, house, etc), you will be amazed with how differently the LiFePo batteries perform. I can't say enough about how they improved the livability of our cabin from before when I was using decent deep cycle batteries.

It's not the cost of solar panels that's the issue, simply math, add enough panels to fill useable demands...
Direct cost per watt ratio.

The obscene cost was racks & mounts, batteries for me!

I found ways to make my own, MUCH lower cost racks & mounts.
I didn't need anything 'Custom' or 'Pretty' enough to get past an HOA or something equally as stupid.
No extruded, polished aluminum 'One Of' racks for me...

Rows of fence posts?
Taller posts so the livestock and mower doesn't get into them.
Cross bar panel mounts made of stamped fence posts ($3-$4 each).

...........

Then comes batteries....
Insert BIG eye roll here!

I always misspell this,
Batteries have a columb (C) rate,
Its how FAST you recharge the batteries.

The lower the 'C' rate, the less stress/damage you do to the battery (or battery bank).

Tapering off the charge RATE as the battery reaches full charge is a pretty big deal.
Internal resistance goes up as you reach full charge, and full on 'Blast' charging does a crap load of (heat) damage.

Use a Battery MANAGEMENT System instead of a Battery Monitoring System.
If it doesn't have variable rate charging AND a thermal probe (thermal couple) then it's not going to treat your batteries very well.

If it can't sense the rising temperature, or know when Lithium batteries are too cold to be charged, then it's not 'Optimum' for Lithium batteries (or most of the newer chemistry batteries).

The MANAGEMENT units are only about $20 more expensive, take a little more wiring/placement of the thermal probe/sensor, but they will seriously extend the life of you batteries.

.........

In case someone missed it,
Lead/Acid are not efficient for solar storage.
Short term backup on a little inverter... Maybe...

What most people miss,
A 'Charge Cycle' isn't recharging batteries that are 25% discharged...
That's 1/4 of a charge cycle.

It takes 4X recharges from 25% discharged to equal the 'wear'/damage of a full discharge & recharge.

I keep seeing people post they have 'X' amount of 'Charge Cycles' on their batteries and that TWICE what the manufacturer listed...
NOPE!
When it's 25% discharged, you should get 4X the manufacturer rating of charge cycles before you hit the ACTUAL charge cycle recommendation.

Consider BIG batteries!
I'm about to finish my biggest battery yet, and then it will go 'En Banc' with the other batteries.
Remember, you can add batteries (connected cells) to your 'Banc'/Bank at any time as long as your new addition has its own Battery Management System (BMS).

Each of the BMS units will take your solar power and meter it into each battery 'En Banc' independently of the others.

If ANYTHING goes wrong, that BMS will disconnect it's battery from the others independently.
It will self balance cells in the battery, it will detect bad cells and compensate for them, it will cut off the battery if the system tries to overcharge/over discharge, it will disconnect if the battery gets too hot or cold...

Well worth that $20 when you consider 1kW (actual) battery can be anywhere from $400 to $1,000 depending on chemistry & availability!

I started with used LFP about 3 years ago.
I (torture) tested, I made mistakes, I did everything wrong about 3 times while educating myself...

Not one 'Failure With Fire', including shooting them with a .30 rifle and driving spike nails through them.
I wouldn't want to breath the white gas/smoke that comes from them, but not one FIRE.

I'm getting close to 3x the useable charge capacity from LFP as I did from Lead/Acid.

They 'Say' you should only get about 100% to 125% more, but they don't consider the LOW VOLTAGE shutoff point on bigger, whole house inverters...

Lithium just holds voltage up longer than Lead/Acid so the low voltage doesn't kick the inverter off.
80%-95% rated capacity of LFP vs. 25%-35% of rated capacity of Lead/Acid, if you are lucky...

Not that I drain my LFP like that anymore...
I don't discharge mine much deeper than I did Lead/Acid now.
I'm in it for longevity, low charge rate (low 'C' rate) and I don't quite top them off to the upper limit where resistance & heat shoot to the moon.

Being slightly below maximum charge doesn't hurt LFP in the slightest, where it would have been a chronically undercharge and death sentence for Lead/Acid...

I've been adding batteries as I can afford and find them, increasing storage capacity.
Unlike Lead/Acid, LFP doesn't significantly decline when unused, and since I'm off grid, having some extra days of minimal power when the sun doesn't shine is just fine with me...
And it's also extra capacity when we have everything on at once, big electrical loads.

We gave the batteries quite a workout this fall, shop running full blast, us drying, processing and canning the gardens, etc.
I even ran several loads of cloths (washing winter stuff) without thinking too much, never bottomed out the current battery bank...

I'm shooting for 3-4 weeks of minimal reserve, shutting most things down.
At normal consumption, assuming the shop isn't sucking amps, we have more than a week, but I don't know exactly how much.

Its most certainly worth learning about lithium batteries and learning how to wire a BMS. Times would have to get pretty bad for me to consider Lead/Acid again!

.........

On the other hand,
Someone just getting started with minimal money might want to look into used fork truck batteries...
Just because that fork truck battery won't live through an entire shift having the crap beat out of it...
Doesn't mean it won't provide hours, or even days of (relatively) low amp drain from an inverter.

You WILL need to learn the rules for Lead/Acid...
Nothing but distilled or deionized water,
Check electrolyte levels daily until you get to know the battery,
GOOD VENTS for the corrosive/explosive gasses,
Constant terminal maintenance,
And how to move something that is heavier than some cars with the big ones.

Doesn't matter if that battery has a bad cell.
External connections between cells,
Simply cut the lead bridge on the bad cell and jump over it with wire.
One dead cell on a newer battery is a good mine, a lottery win if you are going low dollar.

Most fork truck batteries come with heavy copper cables & connectors making things easy to hook up and saving you those costs.

Most places will sell you used fork truck batteries for battery scrap weight...
And when you are done with them, you will get your money back in scrap weight.
Hard to beat a net zero deal on your storage...
Just a pain in the butt to deal with Lead/Acid that start about a ton and go up from there.

Just some ideas from the junkyard that is my life, use it if you can.

 

[JeepHammer]

Unless the world goes Mad Max I'm still yrs away from the install. I just want the parts here in case it goes quick.

I don't even really want to do the install at the house I'm at now. Batteries won't ship to me before December at the earliest. Don't have any racking figured out for the panels. I'm still just learning about and accumulating 'parts'.

What I would suggest...
Getting the stuff out, even if panels are laying on the ground or saw horses,
And doing a hookup/test.

You don't need 3,000 aH of battery, you don't need racks/mounts, etc.
Just make sure you do have the things you need if things go 'Mad Max' and it all works, you know how to connect it all.

Tip/Hint.
When working with panels in the sun,
If they came in boxes, keep the box sides.

They work as light blockers so you don't get the snot knocked out of you while wiring!
No matter how many connectors they put on things, there will always be that one wire that needs a terminal...
And Murphy's Law applies, you won't find it until AFTER you wired the panels!
(Ask me how I learned that... )

Most panels come with enough wiring lead you can jump a panel if one fails...
But not all.
In that case, make up a couple jumpers so if panels fail/get damaged you can jump and bring the string up to full power until they are replaced.
Costs just 2' of 10 AWG and a pair of MC4 connectors.

I can't recommend enough a CURRENT circuit breaker in the runs from each panel string.
I know it's NOT required in NEC...
Good ground wires & current (not amp) breakers will help save your panels, and maybe your inverter in the event of a lightening strike!
At $10-$20 per panel string, pretty cheap insurance.

On that lightening strike note,
DEEP (like 8') Copper plated ground rod each 30'-40'.
I know people will tell you horror stories about 'Ground Loop', but it's just plain not true. You aren't building a radio here...

The better path lightening has to earth ground the more equipment you DO NOT have to replace.
See any commercial set up, a wired earth ground at every support post... (30'-40' apart)

 

[JeepHammer]

I'm kinda like a 4yr-old with this stuff. I know some words but don't really understand what any of it means.

The only stupid question is the one you don't ask...

Remember, 99.9% of the population will electrocute themselves changing flashlight batteries!

Its a pretty steep learning curve, but you already have a good start...
See anyone that can't hook up jumper cables without getting them backwards.

Volts X Amps = Watts
Watts ÷ Volts = Amps
Watts ÷ Amps = Volts

Find yourself the old Brown & Sharp wire sizing scale and DO NOT go by some 'Automotove' load gauge sizing chart.
If you can't find it, I can send you a copy.

B&S scale will have the size in circular mills, AWG sizes, resistance per foot, impedance per foot, etc.

I tell people this because the B&S scale assumes DC (100% duty cycle) and not AC power 50% or less duty cycle).

Also,
The battery wiring in particular,
I use welding cable for a lot of reasons.

Rubberized insulation that doesn't catch fire like vinyl insulation does.
It stands abrasion much better.
Its much more chemical & heat damage resistant.
Its 100% virgin copper, no alloys (if it's American made).
Finer strands means more copper (packs tighter) so larger amp load capacity.
Finer strands & rubberized insulation means it bends easier, makes tighter bends.

Its a common sense thing,
Welding cable is made to carry a lot of amps, no matter the voltage,
And carry those big amps at 100% duty cycle.
Your basic home wiring is made for AC, less than half the duty cycle, and isn't designed to be unplugged & moved around, bent a bunch of times, etc.

DC stuff and sizing for DC batteries,
AC wiring for the AC side of things.

That's like using CURRENT breakers rather than Amperage circuit breakers.

While the power grid is great big and can handle you shorting something out, waiting for the breaker to trip...
...

An inverter will often fry itself on the same short circuit.

I learned this TWICE,
Once pinching an extension cord in a door at my shop,
And again when someone ran a screw through the wall into home wiring at their place.

The short fried the inverter on both occasions, neither home breakers or breakers on the inverters weren't fast enough on either occasion.

Panel ground lugs are another issue.
NEC says you can get away with aluminum on home installs.
Don't do it, it's a trap!

Spring for the stainless.
Copper ground wires don't play well with aluminum
(corrosion issues, thermal expansion & contractions rates loosen connections) And a lightening strike will just blow aluminum apart.
(Ask me how I learned that...)

Its like using an 8' or longer earth ground rod...
You MUST get down through dry dirt, sand, loam into something that conducts electricity.
(Probably why NEC requires 8'+)

The devil is often in the details, not the big stuff, so ask questions!

 

[JeepHammer]

I had looked into this. 30 plants are supposed to give you enough for 3 cups per day

COFFEE! COFFEE! COFFEE! COFFEE!

 

[JeepHammer]

OK, so moving on to the solar array,......

Ian bumped me up to a 6 into 1 combiner to help me utilize the large number of solar panels I already have. Max input voltage is 250vdc so I can put 6 of my 36.4v panels in each string. Times six strings that creates a 36 panel array. My panels are rated at 290w so that's 10,440 watts but since they're used panels I whack 5-10% right off the top so on a 'perfect' day the array might put out somewhere between 9 and 10kw. I can only use 3kw for charging so I'm thinking of building the array in a bi-directional manner, 18 panels(three strings of six)facing roughly SE and 18 panels facing roughly SW. That'll flatten the curve and spread the hourly collection more evenly throughout the day. And I'll still be getting max charge amps even on cloudy days when the panels are only putting out 30%.

I met with Ian around 2PM on a cloudy day. He has 30kw of panels installed and he pulled up his production for the day,......4.5kwh total. He should have had closer to 100kwh by then by my math but it had snowed all morning. I didn't see his panels but I assume they were on the back side of the building as that would have been the southern face. Depending on the slope of the roof he may still have been pretty covered. Not sure what kind of output you'd get on a purely 'cloudy' day,.........10%, 20%, 30%? I really don't know.

His stock of items wasn't as bad as I'd feared. He still had pallets of product to sell although I have no idea how much of what I saw had already been spoken for. He did point to a spot on the floor where his inventory was stacked last week and I'd say he's down 30% from there. And he did say he had another truck already on the road and due in any day,......and I think more jammed up at the port but already onshore. It's anything further up the supply chain that's sketchy. I still think it's a good idea to grab anything you might need now if you can find it in stock. I believe the next couple of years are going to be a time of back-order and waiting lists.

Smaller amp hour batteries in your bank?
Just more of them...

I ran up against the same issue with built in chargers a couple times.
I went around that with power supplies as charger limiters,
Then using Battery Management Systems (BMS) that catered to exactly what the battery 'En Banc' needed.

I have so much storage now that if all cells were completely discharged there is no way the built in charger could handle the amperage...
(and more people are getting into the same situation with Lithium, a 'Good' problem to have!)

LFP will absorb amps like crazy when they are discharged, they don't have the internal resistance Lead/Acid does, so it's like welding amperages headed into a big bank...

I split the incoming panel feed into inverter and power supplies, one supply for each battery 'En Banc'.
I need to knock back the voltage directly from panels, mine can reach 300+ VDC...

Of course it won't get that high when the panels age, they only have 1 year on them now...

Its that conversion process.
240-500 VDC @ 12-20 Amps coming in,
Need to knock the voltage back and the amperage up to charge batteries.
The good thing about this arrangement, it's DC all the way around.

You CAN use 2ea. 12 volt chargers on a 24 volt battery,
Its called Split Charging.

You just have to connect every 6 cells (in Lead/Acid),
You will have a positive & negative on the same bridge between cells 6 & 7.
DC current seeks its own opposite polarity, so you aren't running a circuit through the rest of the battery cells this way.

Each power supply will only charge the battery it's hooked to, so you can do each battery 'En Banc' like it was a stand alone.

If you aren't familiar with the concept, it will warp your brain!
Remember, it's DC, and in DC wiring you can use a common wire for two different circuits (3 wires instead of 4),
Without screwing the second circuit up...

The current from the power supply/converter is ONLY going to pass through the battery you connected the positive & negative to.
No current path to the other batteries 'En Banc', so no harm, no foul.

Even if there was, the BMS is going to regulate & protect the cells it's connected to, the wonderful part of a BMS is cell/battery protection.

 

[dprimm]

COFFEE! COFFEE! COFFEE! COFFEE!

Some motivation for you. Apparently coffee is a heavy feeder like corn. With fertilizer prices skyrocketing coffee will be crazy.

My wife has zero desire to roast beans. I don’t know how to stockpile for her

 

[kaveman]

Some motivation for you. Apparently coffee is a heavy feeder like corn. With fertilizer prices skyrocketing coffee will be crazy.

My wife has zero desire to roast beans. I don’t know how to stockpile for her

Ah,....someone's been listening to David DuByne at Adapt 2030.

 

[AtTheMurph]

"Some deny science and won't consider RE or alternatives to petroleum"

What does this mean?

 

[JeepHammer]

"Some deny science and won't consider RE or alternatives to petroleum"

What does this mean?

That means there is a concentrated propaganda machine out there working to keep fossil fuel power/grid a monopoly,
And a lot of people believe the propaganda...

Decentralized RE, locally produced and consumed power is cleaner, often cheaper, and locally controlled, and the fossil fuel companies don't like that idea.

Pollution is reduced, jobs are created, locals are back in control, and conglomerates hate that idea.

Progression,
Human power to animal power, to wind power, to water power, to steam power...

Wind, water and sun power still work.
Steam was localized, high power work energy.

Then along came electricity.
No one can tell where an electrical watt came from, they are all the same...
The first large scale electrical generators were falling water powered, no pollution.

Then came bigger steam engines, fossil fueled, to produce electrical energy in places there wasn't falling water.
With a lot of pollution...

The shallow, cleaner fossil fuels, easy to recover, are gone.
What's left is deep, dirty, dangerous & expensive.

The progression of science has allowed us to build on old technologies that are much cleaner, wind, solar, etc. to produce electrical energy.
Wind produces no pollution at all, comes free, and is cheaper than coal, petrolum, nuclear and is even with gas,
Without the wells, pipelines, greenhouse gases, water & soil pollution, etc.

It's simply progression of science,
To deny that wind, water, solar works is science denying.

 

[buckwacker]

That means there is a concentrated propaganda machine out there working to keep fossil fuel power/grid a monopoly,
And a lot of people believe the propaganda...

Decentralized RE, locally produced and consumed power is cleaner, often cheaper, and locally controlled, and the fossil fuel companies don't like that idea.

Pollution is reduced, jobs are created, locals are back in control, and conglomerates hate that idea.

Progression,
Human power to animal power, to wind power, to water power, to steam power...

Wind, water and sun power still work.
Steam was localized, high power work energy.

Then along came electricity.
No one can tell where an electrical watt came from, they are all the same...
The first large scale electrical generators were falling water powered, no pollution.

Then came bigger steam engines, fossil fueled, to produce electrical energy in places there wasn't falling water.
With a lot of pollution...

The shallow, cleaner fossil fuels, easy to recover, are gone.
What's left is deep, dirty, dangerous & expensive.

The progression of science has allowed us to build on old technologies that are much cleaner, wind, solar, etc. to produce electrical energy.
Wind produces no pollution at all, comes free, and is cheaper than coal, petrolum, nuclear and is even with gas,
Without the wells, pipelines, greenhouse gases, water & soil pollution, etc.

It's simply progression of science,
To deny that wind, water, solar works is science denying.

There's no concentrated green energy propaganda machine?

Don't get me wrong, I'm looking to get into an alternative energy more for independence and security than to save the planet, but to pretend the green energy industry is ideologically pure as the wind driven snow is a fallacy of epic proportions. Their propaganda machine is ay bigger than that of fossil fuel's.

 

[JeepHammer]

There's no concentrated green energy propaganda machine?

Don't get me wrong, I'm looking to get into an alternative energy more for independence and security than to save the planet, but to pretend the green energy industry is ideologically pure as the wind driven snow is a fallacy of epic proportions. Their propaganda machine is ay bigger than that of fossil fuel's.

There is very little 'Propaganda' about RE.
There doesn't have to be, it's clearly a better choice for electrical energy.

Start off with, no fuel cost or waste/pollution.
Sun & wind are free (the big two with expansion room).
Neither require mining, drilling or refining creating waste products, and no waste products from their energy exchange.

If you sole focus is on pollution, that's your calling card. (Greenies)
If your focus is on energy supply, then the free energy from sun/wind is your focus.
(Environmentalist)
If you are worried about potential for weak point attacks, decentralized power substantially reduces the possibility of attack. (DOD/Military)
If your deal is jobs and future employment, it's simply a switch from fossil fuels to RE, energy jobs will stay about the same, or increase depending on how decentralized the power grid becomes.

Now, keep in mind there are several petrolum companies are investing heavily in RE, both solar electric and wind electric.
BP is a major player in solar, former oil companies in Texas are building wind turbines as fast as they can get them up.
(What do they know you don't?)

There is a $3 billion a year campaign promoting 'Clean Gas' energy, all propaganda since there is no such thing as clean fossil fuels.
That's coming out of YOUR pocket, the government gives $3 Billion in subsidies to the petrolum companies.
Another $3 billion in taxpayer dollars for 'Development' of new products...
The most profitable business in the history of mankind needs taxpayer 'Development' money?

While homeowners/small business can (sometimes, depending on which party is in the Whitehouse) get tax rebates if they install RE.
This is directly back to the taxpayer, end user.

I'm a user of RE, built it myself.
I'm not pumping propaganda, but actual numbers it cost, what work it took, what the local electrical rates are, and what I get out of my system.

If you don't like it, then just pass...
If you do like it and want to know more, I'll try to help.

I have no tolerance for BS, it either works or it doesn't.
After that, how well does it work?
Can I improve it?

 

[AtTheMurph]

That means there is a concentrated propaganda machine out there working to keep fossil fuel power/grid a monopoly,
And a lot of people believe the propaganda...

There isn't a monopoly and the propaganda is decidedly pushing "green energy" even though it is more expensive (must be so or the market would favor "green" and it wouldn't need massive subsidies.)

The person believing propaganda is you, I'm afraid.

Decentralized RE, locally produced and consumed power is cleaner, often cheaper, and locally controlled, and the fossil fuel companies don't like that idea.

Can be all of those things but the number of places you believe that is true for and the total number of people is very small. The fossil fuel companies probably don't even give a crap about them.

Pollution is reduced, jobs are created, locals are back in control, and conglomerates hate that idea.

Pollution may be reduced. That is actually debatable. Let's say it is. But if so, the actual reduction in pollution is as small as the number of people that getting off the grid actually makes economic sense for.

Progression,
Human power to animal power, to wind power, to water power, to steam power...

Wind, water and sun power still work.
Steam was localized, high power work energy.

Then along came electricity.
No one can tell where an electrical watt came from, they are all the same...
The first large scale electrical generators were falling water powered, no pollution.

No pollution but large environmental impact.

Then came bigger steam engines, fossil fueled, to produce electrical energy in places there wasn't falling water.
With a lot of pollution...

You are referring to coal. And coal was dirty, not anymore. And it's cheap. And it is easily attainable.

The shallow, cleaner fossil fuels, easy to recover, are gone.
What's left is deep, dirty, dangerous & expensive.

Expensive in relation to what? Certainly expensive in relation to RE sources, otherwise the free markets would have already installed RE all over the world without government subsidies.

The progression of science has allowed us to build on old technologies that are much cleaner, wind, solar, etc. to produce electrical energy.
Wind produces no pollution at all, comes free, and is cheaper than coal, petrolum, nuclear and is even with gas,
Without the wells, pipelines, greenhouse gases, water & soil pollution, etc.

It is not cheaper, not even close. The proof is the subsidies and the government forced installations and requirements.

It's simply progression of science,
To deny that wind, water, solar works is science denying.

Nobody is denying it works. What people are denying is that it is a good idea. The fact that these greedy businesses need government to subsidize the creation of windmills and solar arrays is the simple proof that they are economically poor ideas.

Greedy businesses want to make money, right? That means oil, coal, gas companies. They are not somehow blocking those technologies and are in fact soaking up government payments because that is where the money is.

Just go ask Elon Musk. He built a multi billion dollar company around soaking up government payments and even built a battery powered car with the largess.

Ask yourself why government needs to subsidize such a great and superior idea. It may be great and superior some day, but certainly not today.

And using current capital to build infrastructure around uncompetitive technology isn't a good idea. It makes us poorer and we will find out the technology wasn't the right one 50 years from now when it might make sense.

 

[JeepHammer]

There isn't a monopoly and the propaganda is decidedly pushing "green energy" even though it is more expensive (must be so or the market would favor "green" and it wouldn't need massive subsidies.)

The person believing propaganda is you, I'm afraid.


Can be all of those things but the number of places you believe that is true for and the total number of people is very small. The fossil fuel companies probably don't even give a crap about them.

Pollution may be reduced. That is actually debatable. Let's say it is. But if so, the actual reduction in pollution is as small as the number of people that getting off the grid actually makes economic sense for.


No pollution but large environmental impact.


You are referring to coal. And coal was dirty, not anymore. And it's cheap. And it is easily attainable.


Expensive in relation to what? Certainly expensive in relation to RE sources, otherwise the free markets would have already installed RE all over the world without government subsidies.


It is not cheaper, not even close. The proof is the subsidies and the government forced installations and requirements.

Nobody is denying it works. What people are denying is that it is a good idea. The fact that these greedy businesses need government to subsidize the creation of windmills and solar arrays is the simple proof that they are economically poor ideas.

Greedy businesses want to make money, right? That means oil, coal, gas companies. They are not somehow blocking those technologies and are in fact soaking up government payments because that is where the money is.

Just go ask Elon Musk. He built a multi billion dollar company around soaking up government payments and even built a battery powered car with the largess.

Ask yourself why government needs to subsidize such a great and superior idea. It may be great and superior some day, but certainly not today.

And using current capital to build infrastructure around uncompetitive technology isn't a good idea. It makes us poorer and we will find out the technology wasn't the right one 50 years from now when it might make sense.

Like I said, I have no tolerance for BS.

My home assembled solar was *Supposed* to pay for itself in 20 years.
The 20 year number came from the warranty period on new panels.

With rate increases to pay for a so called "Clean Coal" plant, it payed back in just over 9 years.

That was supposed to be $1.5 Billion in energy company money, $1.5 Billion in TAXPAYER money...
It's now over $13.5 Billion and still hasn't made it's first cubic foot of 'Natural Gas', but all three of the big gas producers have pipelines into the plant to make it function.

$3 Billon in rate increases by the company to pay for that plant, $10.5 Billion in TAXPAYER money.

And, they are asking for another $3 Billion...
That's in Edwardsport Indiana.

.........

Another case is Washington Indiana,
While restricting, virtually banning home solar electric, they put in a big solar field operated by the city public utility.

The city requires a million dollars in insurance for home solar, just in case you electrocute workers or damage the city grid, which is completely impossible with 2013 & 2017 NEC compliant hardware...

Now, keep I mind this is the same city that decommissioned it's own power plant in the 80s to buy power from 3rd party middle men companies, including Enron, and has had rate increases at least every two years since.

They also got fleeced for over $12 million by crooked middle men suppliers...

.......

And...
It's a stone cold fact that wind generators cost nothing for 'Fuel'.

It's wind, it's free, non-polluting, disrupts virtually nothing in the environment...

Watts per dollar of infrastructure (turbines) is WAY below fossil fuel plants.

Solar is more expensive, but still below coal and it's infrastructure, and energy production doesn't produce toxic waste of any kind.
Over time, and fossil fuel plant rebuilds, solar is cheaper than coal.

.......

I powered a home, and a welding/machine shop, on 90s technology for over 15 years, and still beat the grid prices for electrical energy.

I've sense updated to 2017 technology, and I'm producing more energy than we can consume in LESS than the same space as before.

I'm what is called a Mini-Grid,
(Opposed to Micro-Grid for smaller systems)
I'm off grid so I can do pretty much what I want as long as it complies with NEC code.

I KNOW it works,
I KNOW it's cheaper than the local grid,
I KNOW I don't have power outages,
I KNOW I own the system and my costs are fixed, and what the payoff dates are. (Already passed)
I KNOW can make modifications to suit my situation without interference.

And I didn't get one dollar in tax rebates since I didn't use an accredited installer.

.......

Don't confuse tax rebates with taxpayer money passed through 'Grants'.

With rebates, you have to earn the income to have a tax burden that allows you to deduct the rebates.
That means the person getting the rebates has to do something that produces income, pays taxes on that income.

While grants are taxpayer money that goes through the government system, costing a crap ton of the money,

Then given to people/corporations (welfare) with no guarantee (or hope) of recovering that money in taxes down the road through production.

.......

Like I said, there is a crap ton of propaganda out there from fossil fuel companies, and a lot of people fall for it...

RE needs no propaganda,
Enough first hand users out there to let you know their experience,
And educated people that are capable of understanding the cost/benefit analysis.

 

[AtTheMurph]

Like I said, I have no tolerance for BS.

My home assembled solar was *Supposed* to pay for itself in 20 years.
The 20 year number came from the warranty period on new panels.

With rate increases to pay for a so called "Clean Coal" plant, it payed back in just over 9 years.

That "clean coal" plant was another effort by government to centrally plan our energy. Central planning doesn't work very well for one reason. The planners are not very good at determining the best use of resources and have no skin in the game.

That was supposed to be $1.5 Billion in energy company money, $1.5 Billion in TAXPAYER money...
It's now over $13.5 Billion and still hasn't made it's first cubic foot of 'Natural Gas', but all three of the big gas producers have pipelines into the plant to make it function.

Se my point above.

$3 Billon in rate increases by the company to pay for that plant, $10.5 Billion in TAXPAYER money.

See point above.

And, they are asking for another $3 Billion...
That's in Edwardsport Indiana.

See point above.

.........

Another case is Washington Indiana,
While restricting, virtually banning home solar electric, they put in a big solar field operated by the city public utility.

No one has banned anything. You can add a solar array anytime you wish.

The city requires a million dollars in insurance for home solar, just in case you electrocute workers or damage the city grid, which is completely impossible with 2013 & 2017 NEC compliant hardware...

And? What does the power company have to carry for liability insurance?

Now, keep I mind this is the same city that decommissioned it's own power plant in the 80s to buy power from 3rd party middle men companies, including Enron, and has had rate increases at least every two years since.

Rate increases are a fact of life in a country where the currency is being debauched at a pretty astounding rate. The causal effects are not what you think.

They also got fleeced for over $12 million by crooked middle men suppliers...

They didn't get fleeced. They did the fleecing.

.......

And...
It's a stone cold fact that wind generators cost nothing for 'Fuel'.

Correct. But the cost to build, erect and maintain a windmill at least the commercial ones I am referring to, are higher then their actual electricity production.

I happened to be in Benton, Warren and Newton counties yesterday. Thousands upon thousands of windmills dot the skyline. Wind was blowing a nice steady 10-15mph. A majority of the windmills we not operating.

Over $3M per sitting idle on a perfect day to generate good clean electricity. But they do not. And when it's too windy or not windy enough they do not generate electricity.

The capital expended is being wasted because windmills, at least commercial, are not a feasible solution for anything but a small amount of power generation on the margin.

And it that is all they are good for, why even bother? We can argue the "green" thing if you wish but the simple fact is that if the worry is warming climate, that is a dubious claim. No amount of observed warming of the Earth has been outside of natural variation. That is a simple fact that "science" agrees with.

Warming may or may not be bad for humans, so the scare tactics are unfounded. Warming may well be very good for us if we could do it. History shows that human civilization thrives in warmer periods than colder. So the evidence would appear to encourage us to try to warm the climate, if we can.

The the "green" is about other emissions other than CO2, those have already been tackled, at least in the USA where power plant emission of things other than CO2 are very small and of no consequence.

It's wind, it's free, non-polluting, disrupts virtually nothing in the environment...

And is unreliable and the infrastructure needed to produce power from it on a large scale is not cost effective. Hence the need for government to subsidize it.

Gov would not need to subsidize it if it was a good economic idea, but it is not in the current environment. Greedy companies would be building windmills all over if they made money, but they don't without the taxpayer being forced to pay.

Watts per dollar of infrastructure (turbines) is WAY below fossil fuel plants.

Solar is more expensive, but still below coal and it's infrastructure, and energy production doesn't produce toxic waste of any kind.
Over time, and fossil fuel plant rebuilds, solar is cheaper than coal.

.......

I powered a home, and a welding/machine shop, on 90s technology for over 15 years, and still beat the grid prices for electrical energy.

I've sense updated to 2017 technology, and I'm producing more energy than we can consume in LESS than the same space as before.

I'm what is called a Mini-Grid,
(Opposed to Micro-Grid for smaller systems)
I'm off grid so I can do pretty much what I want as long as it complies with NEC code.

I KNOW it works,
I KNOW it's cheaper than the local grid,
I KNOW I don't have power outages,
I KNOW I own the system and my costs are fixed, and what the payoff dates are. (Already passed)
I KNOW can make modifications to suit my situation without interference.

And I didn't get one dollar in tax rebates since I didn't use an accredited installer.

.......

Don't confuse tax rebates with taxpayer money passed through 'Grants'.

With rebates, you have to earn the income to have a tax burden that allows you to deduct the rebates.
That means the person getting the rebates has to do something that produces income, pays taxes on that income.

While grants are taxpayer money that goes through the government system, costing a crap ton of the money,

Then given to people/corporations (welfare) with no guarantee (or hope) of recovering that money in taxes down the road through production.

.......

Like I said, there is a crap ton of propaganda out there from fossil fuel companies, and a lot of people fall for it...

RE needs no propaganda,
Enough first hand users out there to let you know their experience,
And educated people that are capable of understanding the cost/benefit analysis.

For a home based system I agree you can make an argument, but you also need to factor in the backup power you need from the grid. You are being subsidized by that system that runs a power line to your home of a gas line.

I am talking about the large scale wind/solar projects that are a boondoggle that will never make a positive return v. coal, gas, hydro or nuclear, at least at current prices.

I suppose the government can alter the pricing of energy markets to make wind and solar more competitive, which they are trying to do, but the net result for the country will be very bad.

Higher energy costs makes us poorer and less competitive. And as it currently stands wind and solar are both. Maybe in 30 years when coal is $1000/ton, oil $1000/bbl, and Nat gas is $100 will it make sense, but by then the input costs for wind a solar will have increased as well.

Right now solar farms are paying $800/acre to lease ground. That is double the cost of renting the land to farm. How is that smart again?