Micro Alternative & Renewable Energy

[JeepHammer]

Most people will follow what ever is 'Easiest',
Some deny science and won't consider RE or alternatives to petroleum.
This is not the folks that will be interested in this...

.............

*IF* you have enough wind resources,
Or you have moving water across your property,
These are GREAT things to have.

I also don't discount the few that might have natural gas vents from old oil wells, but again, these are few and far between.

Everyone sees the sun every day, it's the most wide spread natural resource the earth has.
It powers about everything on earth, from life to weather patterns,
And in the roughly 4.5 billion years of the planet, it's come up every single day.

I don't have wind or moving water resources, so I went solar...
It's been work, but I can't say I have regrets, and since the property I bought (available when I was in the market) didn't have electrical service, the cost of getting that service was WAY expensive.
The solar has been MUCH cheaper in the long run.
No outages, hasn't failed in about 15 years.

So I'm going to try to cover the basics, with modern equipment, along with tips that can allow you to be more productive and/or reduce initial costs.
These are practical things I've learned, not theory...

 

[JeepHammer]

It's pretty basic,

1. GRID TIED.
This is an inverter powered by solar panels that provides directly to the home,
Excess is moved to the power grid which you might get credits or cash for.

When you aren't producing, and you need more power, the grid supplies it.

These DO NOT work stand alone, the grid has to be up and functioning.
It will offset much of your electric bill, particularly in summer (long days, lots of sun) when air conditioners are screaming at full blast.

2. HYBRID SYSTEMS.
These are grid tied so you can draw from the grid, deliver excess production back onto the grid for credits/cash,
AND,
They have a battery backup that allows for stand alone use when the grid is down.

3. OFF GRID.
These DO NOT connect to the grid, you are limited to the power you can produce & store in batteries.
These often have built in connection for generators to help out in high drain situations.

The price and install of all three have come way down, become MUCH easier in the last decade.
New battery chemistry has allowed for MUCH longer lived, and much higher charge density.
That means you can do so much more, cheaper in the long run, so value is going up quite fast.

...............

I chose to go off grid since the grid wasn't available for anything I could afford.
Recent science discoveries have allowed me to upgrade for a very reasonable cost so we are producing more than we use...
That's not very efficient, but it is a good feeling to know we won't have dead batteries in the next decade or two!

........

Grid tied, make sure the inverters are 'Gangable', you can add panels & inverters to increase your production to your use requirements.

Some have to be added in pairs, some in singles, do your homework.

Hybrid systems are the ultimate in flexibility.
No sun? Use the grid to keep backup batteries charged.
Grid down? Switch to panels/batteries only (off grid).
Producing more power than you can use?
Sell/trade it back to the grid, you will be making it in the middle of the day, the peak useable time when power is the most expensive and needed.

Off Grid, or in my case, micro grid.
More than one series of panels, more than one battery bank, and more than one set of inverters, several points power is used (shop, home, well pumps, etc).

YOU will have to decide what best fits your situation.

Costs are fixed, so the longer your system works, the cheaper your power becomes.
Most shoot for a 20 year payoff, this is because most panels come with 20 year warranty...
You CAN put together a system that will payoff in less than 10 years, which is money in the bank for you after payoff.

With batteries that will store/return up to 300% more energy than Lead/Acid,
AND,
Having life spans 5x Lead/Acid, the price over time comes WAY down.

Knowing your batteries will store/return 300% Lead/Acid,
AND,
Will last 10-15 years, still be serviceable well beyond that, is a pretty good feeling also.

 

[JeepHammer]

SPECIFICS.

I'm sticking with Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries for now. (LiFePo4).

There ARE other chemistry batteries with higher charge density (store/return more energy),
BUT,
Many of those batteries "Fail With Fire".
If damaged, or grossly abused, they catch fire.

Simply put, LiFePo4 are safe enough to be in the home, living quarters, simply because they don't catch fire.

They are also extremely cost effective, being less money per kWh than a lot of the more exotic batteries.

*IF* a person had a 'Power House' detached from the main living quarters then the more exotic batteries would be fine to use, and when found on the surplus market, extremely cost effective.
Batteries from wrecked electric vehicles bought at salvage prices for example.

These are ROBUST, built to live in a vehicle exposed to weather, shaken for hundreds of thousands of miles, etc.
But that doesn't mean you should sacrifice safety in the event of charging/discharging malfunction...

Most people get sacred when you talk about 400-500 volts, this is most effective when talking panel output,
Batteries get more efficient when you start out around 48 volts.
Don't be freaked out about the voltages, this is common, completely normal.
It takes a change in mindset, but the mechanics say the same.

---------------

Unfortunately made in China,
The GrowWatt inverters come recommended by myself, and several other home builders of these systems.

The 5,000 watt inverter is 'stackable' or 'gangable', I think the specification sheet said up to 6 inverters, singularly (not pairs) before you need combiner/control boxes.

These are under $1,000 USD, are dirt easy to hook up, communicate between themselves (no master controller) and are pretty much plug & play.
I'm testing 3 stacked right now, 3 months in and this is what I've been wanting for a very long time.

(Not like Sunny Boy using Sunny Island, $4,000 controller, and you have to add $3,000 to $5,000 inverters in pairs)

These things are all over YouTube, so hookup instruction videos are easy to find.

If you want to go to true 240Vac Split Phase (normal home current from grid) I suggest a balancer for true neutral to balance the draw from your inverters.
This is a gadget that allows your inverters to share power in surge events also, makes your inverters MUCH more effective.

With retail prices under $1,000/5 kW, picking up a spare or two isn't out of the question when you start stocking spare parts...

Gang 3 of these 5,000 watt inverter for 15,000 watts, and it will start/run fairly large shop machines.
15,000 watts will run everything in common homes with power to spare.
This is $3,000 for inverters, batteries & panels will be more (naturally) but it's an entire home power system the user won't be able to tell the difference between inverters & grid, exactly the same in usage.

 

[JeepHammer]

DO NOT be fooled by Ali express and rh like for batteries!
These are way too often batteries that DID NOT meet factory specifications and WILL NOT produce rated outputs or lifespan.

A used, tested good set of discount batteries are often a better deal...

Industrial Use vs Common Use.

While these batteries won't power an electric vehicle for 300 miles at 75 miles an hour anymore.
That's a HUGE discharge rate...

That doesn't mean they won't power your home AT MUCH LOWER DISCHARGE RATES for the next 10 years.

When these industrial batteries are at 80% functional capacity, they are considered 'Dead'.
They are still 80% effective, and unlike Lead/Acid batteries, they won't require 6 to 10 times as much energy to charge as you get back out of them.

They are still more effective at 50% than Lead/Acid are brand new since they return much more of their stored energy.

While I build most of my own batteries/battery banks, there are a bunch of cost effective premade battery packs on the market,
These have charge controllers, cell equalizer systems, battery monitoring systems built in.
Saves you from a lot of wiring that can be confusing if you aren't used to it.

These also make your system modular, something fails and the whole system doesn't have to be pulled, sent in for service... That's a big deal in redundancy & self repair/replacement.

My used battery banks are returning 300% more than Lead/Acid did when new, so don't discount the used market off hand like you would discount a used Lead/Acid battery.

 

[JeepHammer]

While the 'Swoopy' pre-made aluminum racks/mounts look good...
Any post will do to mount a panel.
That includes plain old fence posts, MUCH cheaper than TIG welded, anodized aluminum.

Most of us are capable of digging a fence post hole... And setting a fence post...

Posts & cross bars make a solid mount for panels.
Posts don't flip over in high winds like a bunch of the free standing pre-made racks do...

Roof space on occupied dwellings have different rules than barns, sheds, posts, these differ by state & local codes, be aware of this if installing on home roofs.

There are few codes (other than electrical code) on ground mount panel arrays.
I suggest high enough the dogs/kids don't play on them, and the mower doesn't throw sticks/rocks at them,
You can walk/mow under them.

 

[manifest destiny]

It's too bad man cannot store large amounts of energy. Batteries have come a long way but still lack capacity that would make a difference. As for solar, I have family with a house that is ideal to maximize their ROI on roof panels (clear view, perfect angle, etc.) Turns out it made absolutely no financial sense to install. None. True it would have provided some "free" electricity, but would have never paid for itself. Net loss on any timeframe. The install was in the $20's and only had a service life of 20yrs under ideal conditions. Also would have to pay to have them removed and reinstalled when re-roofing.

 

[manifest destiny]

On a related note, why don't electric cars have solar panels on the roof? Or maybe small windmills. They could recharge simply by driving, no?

 

[rooster]

Nice write up. Thank you. I’ve been looking into the solar thing for a while but this probably the easiest to read explanation I’ve seen.

 

[rooster]

On a related note, why don't electric cars have solar panels on the roof? Or maybe small windmills. They could recharge simply by driving, no?

Solar panels on the roof is a cost to benefit thing from what I’ve heard Elon say. It might be worth it if it’s done on the roof of semi trailers.

attached is an article about how someone is trying it.

 

[JeepHammer]

It's too bad man cannot store large amounts of energy. Batteries have come a long way but still lack capacity that would make a difference.

That is the propaganda and/or lack of keeping up on the science.

The key always was efficiency rather than excessive production.
Insulating the home keeps energy usage costs down,
Efficient lights, efficient appliances etc mean MUCH less demand in the first place,
The huge increase in charge density of batteries in the last two decades has made a lot of things possible,
The increasing efficiency of how we use that power makes even more possible.

As for solar, I have family with a house that is ideal to maximize their ROI on roof panels (clear view, perfect angle, etc.)

No such thing as 'Perfect' roof install.
Fixed panels will always be crippled in production potential since they don't swivel to accommodate time of day or angle of sun throughout the seasons.

The ideal mount would both swivel east/west but incline/decline for sun angle through the seasons.

Turns out it made absolutely no financial sense to install. None. True it would have provided some "free" electricity, but would have never paid for itself. Net loss on any timeframe. The install was in the $20's and only had a service life of 20yrs under ideal conditions. Also would have to pay to have them removed and reinstalled when re-roofing.

Too bad it didn't work out for YOU.
This is a SHTF/Survival forum.
How much have energy rates gone up, and how much has grid tied power come down since you did your evaluation?

What roof were you using that it had to be replaced in less than 20 something years?

 

[JeepHammer]

On a related note, why don't electric cars have solar panels on the roof? Or maybe small windmills. They could recharge simply by driving, no?

Some EVs have solar panels, but the current commuter vehicles are too heavy for panels to do enough charging.
See the ultra light vehicles with bodies maximized space for panels.
They can recharge themselves.

It's science, the basic laws of energy & force.
Any mechanical to electrical power conversion has losses, drag for wind turbines for instance would offset any production they made.

 

[JeepHammer]

Nice write up. Thank you. I’ve been looking into the solar thing for a while but this probably the easiest to read explanation I’ve seen.

Before panels were 8% to 10% efficient,
A big panel might make 80 watts in the 80s and cost thousands.

Now panels are commonly 20% efficient and crank 300+ watts, cost per watt has come WAY down.
This allows for fewer panels/less cost in total.

You had to assemble battery chargers, inverters, battery banks, control systems etc and had to get them all working together, which was challenging to say the least with no standardized components.

Now things get integrated, are mostly standardized, a lot of mostly plug & play.
You do have to change some settings,
For example the charger needs to know what voltage battery bank, what type of battery for upper and lower charge limits,
How fast you want to charge the battery (faster the charge the more heat, that can damage batteries),
Once settings are done, flip the switch and it pretty much runs without adult supervision.

Modular systems are MUCH easier to make redundant (an issue for SHTF or off grid),
But there is a little more wiring to do.

It's not stupid hard, saves you a TON of money over hired install (usually half or more), and you learn how the system works so you can maintain & diagnose.

For example,
While my inverters now have battery chargers integrated,
I also have common regulated power supplies as back up chargers wired to a backup generator.

In the event of a tornado that removed my panels to another county,
I can use the generator to charge batteries & power home while new panels go in.

This is temporary, while the renewable, very slow to degrade RE system gets fixed.
No one wants to scrounge or store fuel enough for months or years,
And the generator itself degrades much faster than a solar system...

There has never been a generator that runs for 20 years on end, even if you have the fuel, without fail/rebuild,
While 20 years is common with solar,
And the fuel is free!

 

[JeepHammer]

The easiest way to state this is...

To be petroleum independent you need,
Oil Wells,
Refinery,
Storage Facility,
Distribution Facility.
Waste Product Disposal.

This is mechanical power, you will have to convert for electrical power, with the 60%-80% losses these converters (generators) have.

The amount of spare parts alone is staggering...
Potential for disaster is HUGE, and a chemical engineering degree is mandatory.

.........

To be solar electricity independent,
Panel Array (or arrays),
Batteries for storage,
Charge regulator (battery charger),
Inverter to produce commonly output.

No waste produced during energy harvest or use, so no waste disposal needed in the functional life span.

The average guy can put the parts together and get it running.

Space needed is in square feet.
Several dozen (or hundred) square feet needed for panels, but batteries & inverter are very few.

 

[manifest destiny]

That is the propaganda and/or lack of keeping up on the science.

The key always was efficiency rather than excessive production.
Insulating the home keeps energy usage costs down,
Efficient lights, efficient appliances etc mean MUCH less demand in the first place,
The huge increase in charge density of batteries in the last two decades has made a lot of things possible,
The increasing efficiency of how we use that power makes even more possible.



No such thing as 'Perfect' roof install.
Fixed panels will always be crippled in production potential since they don't swivel to accommodate time of day or angle of sun throughout the seasons.

The ideal mount would both swivel east/west but incline/decline for sun angle through the seasons.



Too bad it didn't work out for YOU.
This is a SHTF/Survival forum.
How much have energy rates gone up, and how much has grid tied power come down since you did your evaluation?

What roof were you using that it had to be replaced in less than 20 something years

No such thing as 'Perfect' roof install.
Fixed panels will always be crippled in production potential since they don't swivel to accommodate time of day or angle of sun throughout the seasons.

The ideal mount would both swivel east/west but incline/decline for sun angle through the seasons.



Too bad it didn't work out for YOU.
This is a SHTF/Survival forum.
How much have energy rates gone up, and how much has grid tied power come down since you did your evaluation?

What roof were you using that it had to be replaced in less than 20 something years?

Review my post again... It wasn't MY anything. The ideal install was relative to the best one could get on a fixed house position. The panels lose efficiency over time and would need to be replaced at intervals that deminish the ROI. If the roof (shingle in this case) we're to need replacement, the solar panels had to be removed and reinstalled, at a cost. And when SHTF, I'm doubting there will be ready access to replacement panels. I appreciate your noting the conflict of windmills on autos RE: they produce energy but at the cost of adding drag. Good luck with your projects. They're interesting to read and follow along.

 

[Leadeye]

When we moved to the woods after I retired the first time we had the house constructed with thicker walls and extra insulation. Lots of dead trees around and the exercise from cutting and splitting is good for an old geezer. Wood heat works in my opinion, but being close to a supply makes it really work.

 

[JeepHammer]

So, to review,
1. Solar Panels that produce electrical current from the sun (conversion),
2. Battery charger to convert into current the batteries (and inverter) can use,
3. May or may not have batteries for storage,
4. Inverter to convert Direct Current (panels & battery) into commonly used household Alternating Current.

Really small systems that's panels, charge controller, batteries, inverter.

In larger systems, the AC inverter usually has the battery charger built into it.
The panels plug one into the next (series),
Then feed into the inverter (positive & negative).

The inverter does the battery charging and the conversion from DC to AC.

The upper end easily installed by user inverters usually top out around 5,000 watts (5 kW).
This isn't a huge issue anymore since they come 'Stackable' or 'Gangable',
Meaning they are self synchronizing, link up on common lines to produce higher peak energy.

The price on 5 kW inverters has fallen from around $5,000-$6,000 per inverter, to around $1,000 per inverter, and done this in the last 3-5 years.

Many complain about cost when they looked into it, but it's an entirely different price structure now, and prices are falling like a rock! (Good for us!)

My system has positive & negative wires from panel arrays,
3 AC wires (for 240vac split phase),
An earth ground wire,
And a plug in computer type cable for inverters to communicate with each other.

I added DC circuit/current breakers, DC disconnect switches and some DC fuses.
Circuit breakers AND fuses is redundant, but I'm big on safety...

The one thing I did add was a balancer transformer.
It keeps the inverters at level output and provides an actual Neutral leg to my system.
Not an absolute requirement, but makes the system safer and more useful.

 

[JeepHammer]

When we moved to the woods after I retired the first time we had the house constructed with thicker walls and extra insulation. Lots of dead trees around and the exercise from cutting and splitting is good for an old geezer. Wood heat works in my opinion, but being close to a supply makes it really work.

Insulation, sealing up cracks is the best money you will spend no matter what energy source you use.

Even if you have wood resource, the cutting, splitting, stacking, drying, dragging into the house isn't easy work...
Using LESS of it saves a crap ton of work!
(The older you get the more you appreciate that! )

We have a wood pellet/corn boiler with radiant floor heat (warm floors!).
The boiler tank has water heater elements so we can use electricity,
And the boiler has gas burner so we normally use LP gas.

I'll feed and clean the boiler when I'm home, but the wife just cranks on the thermostat when I'm gone.

When I made the holding/hot water tank (expansion tank) I welded in bungs for electric heating elements...
Other than testing them I've never used them, but they are there just in case.

Earth sheltered, we have crazy efficiency numbers, but it's not zero by any means.

 

[dprimm]

The average guy can put the parts together and get it running.

i am proof of that statement.

 

[dprimm]

How do you feel about the GroWatt’s higher energy use when waiting for a demand? I ask as the one I have does not work w stand-by mode. Never turned back on when the freezer was calling for power.

I agree the GroWatt is a nice item. Ian provides great USA support. I am just wondering if a higher efficiency unit is a better option.

INGO, I am willing to share what I have done if you are near Avon. I know what I would like to do differently but right now the $ needs to go elsewhere. The system works for what it was designed.

you can make this stuff as complex or as simple as you want to. If you have been thinking of doing something for solar backup, it can be done.

now is the time.

 

[JeepHammer]

How do you feel about the GroWatt’s higher energy use when waiting for a demand? I ask as the one I have does not work w stand-by mode. Never turned back on when the freezer was calling for power.

I agree the GroWatt is a nice item. Ian provides great USA support. I am just wondering if a higher efficiency unit is a better option.

INGO, I am willing to share what I have done if you are near Avon. I know what I would like to do differently but right now the $ needs to go elsewhere. The system works for what it was designed.

you can make this stuff as complex or as simple as you want to. If you have been thinking of doing something for solar backup, it can be done.

now is the time.

Growatt isn't the "Best" inverter, but it's OK and it's as simple as advanced inverters come.
Everyone I've spoken to with them seem to like them, I've owned others so I'm not going to put them at the top of any list other than price for product/simplicity.

Most folks say the warranty is good, I don't know because I haven't had issues (yet).
If you send yours in for warranty, please let me know how your experience is.

I'm messing with AC coupled,
That's grid tied inverters producing and imputing on AC lines.
My big demand is daylight hours, so AC coupling is OK for me, but it has limitations, like battery charging, none of the common grid tied inverters does battery charging, so I'm using common power supplies as chargers.

That's controlled by frequency shifting.
The normal frequency of AC grid is 60 cycles, shift up a little when there is too much on the lines,
Down a little when there is demand not being filled and the inverters automatically fill that demand bring frequency back to 60hZ.

That takes a battery inverter(s) that support frequency shift.
The battery inverter produces the reference frequency (60hZ) to 'Unlock' the Grid Tied inverters.

Yup, I'm a little off the beaten path for small RE, but I have a machine shop that needs 3 phase, and it has fairly large demand.
Technically I'm into 'Mini-grid' rather than micro-grid, but just barely...
I have a surplus of grid tied inverters and panels, so I work with what I have.