Mandated vaccines or weekly testing for employers of 100+ people.......

[BugI02]

I really have to ask how much better off the country would be as a whole if leadership dropped the vaccine mandate idea and just let people get one if they want one. Get back to solving distribution issues in the economy, the border, the Chinese, etc.

Talking with others today at lunch the subject of people getting fired over Covid shots at a time when workers, skilled or otherwise are in short supply is madness. It was pointed out that we are in a time when Anno Dominae is retiring skilled workers at a high rate. Mass terminations aren't going to get good product out the door regardless of how woke it makes HR look, as if you can add woke to your balance sheet and show it to the bank. Do some major corporations need to crash and burn like Lehman Brothers in 08 to terrorize leadership back to it's senses?

Relative to government contractors, somebody needs to show how an unvaccinated person making uniform clothing, AFVs or other government goods is a threat to national security.

What good is whipping up some modern crusade against unvaccinated people, how does it help? It's like some sort of medieval madness, all that's missing are the inquisitors, the rack, and the stake.

They live in a bubble wherein an admission of error by a conservative or an apostate does not satisfy the mob and in fact further inflames its passions

Often, these type of folk just cannot conceive of space outside the bubble where their 'lived experience' does not hold sway, so they expect to be broken upon the rack if they admit to error

The only way things will change is if it becomes obvious that their bubble is shrinking and life outside it again becomes based on common sense, freedom and real accomplishment

 

[Hatin Since 87]

"Now get vaxxed"?

I see where you stand. Perfectly fine with people who worked on the frontlines without a vax getting fired now because they won’t get one.


Please. Lecture me on trumps morals some more

 

[phylodog]

Oh look, democrats making **** up and changing the meaning of words again. I'm shocked.

Anyone who can take these evil lying ****s serious or better yet pull a lever for one doesn't deserve the freedom this country offers.

 

[BugI02]

The vaccine doesn’t seem to prevent the virus or stop transmission, which is why I hate the mandates and double standards. As far as preventing hospitalizations or deaths, that can absolutely be proven

This is incorrect, based on the CDC's own data released on 17 Sep

While you might be able to say the vaccine makes it less likely you will have a positive test, based on the 12.7 : 1 disparity in unvaxxed v vaxxed in the data, once you have that positive test the trajectory was the same - 6+% of each cohort will be hospitalized and of those admissions 17.5% (unvaxxed) to 20.4%(vaxxed) will die

Another way to look at it is to not bother calculating the percentages. In the data, unvaxxed people made up 92% of total reported cases, 92% of total hospitalizations and 91% of total deaths

Vaccinated people made up 8% of total cases, 8% of total hospitalizations and 9% of total deaths

It is that very stability of percentages that is the tip off. If the vaxxed were being hospitalized and dying at some fraction of the rate of the unvaxxed, say 1/2, then those percentages would be 8% total cases, 4% total hospitalized, 2% total deaths. The fact that they do not decline indicates that the rate of progression/escalation is comparable

Monitoring Incidence of COVID-19 Cases...

After the COVID-19 B.1.617.2 (Delta) variant reached predominance, fully vaccinated people had less risk of infection, hospitalization, and death.

www.cdc.gov

The pertinent data is in paragraph 5

 

[Keith_Indy]

Then there's this just out...

Former CDC Director Gives Alarming Statistic on Fully Vaccinated COVID Deaths

townhall.com

 

[BugI02]

"By almost any measure, New York State’s requirement that health care workers get vaccinated against COVID-19, which was announced on Aug. 16 and went into effect Sept. 27, has been a success."

Nice! By threatening their livelihood and ability to provide for their family, we 'convinced' medically knowledgeable people who would not otherwise take the vaccine to do so

Next you'll be telling us that The Spanish Inquisition was a 'success'

That quote is apropos of nothing, it merely shows that the boot heel still works

Remember when Trump was the one who was going to turn out be Hitler? How did that work out?

 

[Alpo]

Then there's this just out...

Former CDC Director Gives Alarming Statistic on Fully Vaccinated COVID Deaths

townhall.com

Hmmm.

Said differently, wouldn't it be that the unvaccinated population (15% of those eligible) account for 60% of the covid deaths?

 

[Ingomike]

This is verging on straw-manish. The dissension is not over a wish to force doctors to prescribe Ivermectin against their will, it is over people having a prescription allowing them to use it and not being allowed to do so by the institution they are hospitalized within. The hospital is asserting primacy without any evidence of superior kniowledge, as well as more than a faint whiff of politics in the process

The hospital via fiat from the system is asserting primacy...

It just occurred to me that we were so outraged by pharmaceutical gifts to doctors we shut that down but the money didn't go away the prescribing charts are created by hospital system administrators that likely are the recipients of the graft now.

Follow the money...

 

[jsharmon7]

This is incorrect, based on the CDC's own data released on 17 Sep

While you might be able to say the vaccine makes it less likely you will have a positive test, based on the 12.7 : 1 disparity in unvaxxed v vaxxed in the data, once you have that positive test the trajectory was the same - 6+% of each cohort will be hospitalized and of those admissions 17.5% (unvaxxed) to 20.4%(vaxxed) will die

Another way to look at it is to not bother calculating the percentages. In the data, unvaxxed people made up 92% of total reported cases, 92% of total hospitalizations and 91% of total deaths

Vaccinated people made up 8% of total cases, 8% of total hospitalizations and 9% of total deaths

It is that very stability of percentages that is the tip off. If the vaxxed were being hospitalized and dying at some fraction of the rate of the unvaxxed, say 1/2, then those percentages would be 8% total cases, 4% total hospitalized, 2% total deaths. The fact that they do not decline indicates that the rate of progression/escalation is comparable

Monitoring Incidence of COVID-19 Cases...

After the COVID-19 B.1.617.2 (Delta) variant reached predominance, fully vaccinated people had less risk of infection, hospitalization, and death.

www.cdc.gov

The pertinent data is in paragraph 5

You say my belief that the vaccine is effective against hospitalization and death is wrong, and then say the CDC confirms that. You then link to a paper the CDC published that says:


“What are the implications for public health practice?

Getting vaccinated protects against severe illness from COVID-19, including the Delta variant.”

You also posted information that’s says 90%+ of cases, hospitalizations, and deaths are among the unvaccinated, when around 45% of the population is unvaccinated. And this is your evidence that my belief is wrong? Or are you taking issue with my use of the word “prevent?” If that’s the case, then I’ll change it “drastically reduces.”

 

[BugI02]

I’m betting if ivermectin did a study that shows ivermectin works nobody would believe those results.


Same theory as you described, yours just has more levels of people involved to create the illusion it’s an unbiased study.

And what's even better is the latest (potentially profitable) drug to be hyped, molnupiravir, functions by acting on the virus as a mutagen

What could go wrong?

https://www.goodrx.com/blog/molnupiravir-covid-19/

How does molnupiravir work?
Molnupiravir is an antiviral medication known as a ribonucleoside analog. Molnupiravir looks similar to a building block in the genetic material of SARS-CoV-2 (the virus that causes COVID-19). When molnupiravir is present, a protein in the virus incorporates it into the genetic material of the virus.

When SARS-CoV-2 uses this genetic material to make copies of itself, it results in errors (mutations). The virus can’t copy itself because of these errors.

 

[Alpo]

You say my belief that the vaccine is effective against hospitalization and death is wrong, and then say the CDC confirms that. You then link to a paper the CDC published that says:


“What are the implications for public health practice?

Getting vaccinated protects against severe illness from COVID-19, including the Delta variant.”

You also posted information that’s says 90%+ of cases, hospitalizations, and deaths are among the unvaccinated, when around 45% of the population is unvaccinated. And this is your evidence that my belief is wrong? Or are you taking issue with my use of the word “prevent?” If that’s the case, then I’ll change it “drastically reduces.”

Yeah, fuzzy math. The Maryland data shows 85% vaccinated responsible for 40% of present death rate. That means 15% of the unvaccinated represent 60% of the present death rate. That is not a stellar endorsement for going commando.

 

[BugI02]

View attachment 164010

The mechanism is important here. If you are fired for cause, you usually are not entitled to state unemployment benefits (you can challenge whether the reasons amount to 'for cause' however)

So if the state is consistent and only denies benefits to those deemed fired for cause, it will probably be allowed and whether refusing the vaccine indeed is justifiable cause will need to be (and should be) challenged in court

Just another instance of state's bootheel on the people's neck

 

[jsharmon7]

The data coming out of Scotland is interesting to say the least. The vaccine provides around 50% protection at best and your more likely to die from covid if you are vaccinated

https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/9648/21-10-13-covid19-publication_report.pdf

I’m glad to see a country just putting the info out to the people. I’m also glad they’re acknowledging the difference between being hospitalized “with” Covid and hospitalized “because of” Covid. Those are very different things.

The data does seem to suggest the vaccines are not perfect, but they are very effective. It seems like good evidence to get the vaccine if you’re in an at-risk group, but not good enough to suggest the government has any business forcing people to get it.

A couple observations from the data:

Just over 92% of the population in Scotland has had at least one dose. The fact that the remaining 7-8% make up 30% of the hospitalizations is significant.

Vaccinated cases were 231 per 1,000 as compared to 411 per 1,000 for unvaccinated.

Unvaccinated were 1.8 to 4 times more likely to be hospitalized as compared to the vaccinated.

Unvaccinated were 3-4 times more likely to die as compared to the vaccinated.

Overall, it seems pretty encouraging both that the vaccine is a good option for those who want it, and that the data doesn’t support forcing people to get it if they don’t want it.

 

[BugI02]

You say my belief that the vaccine is effective against hospitalization and death is wrong, and then say the CDC confirms that. You then link to a paper the CDC published that says:


“What are the implications for public health practice?

Getting vaccinated protects against severe illness from COVID-19, including the Delta variant.”

You also posted information that’s says 90%+ of cases, hospitalizations, and deaths are among the unvaccinated, when around 45% of the population is unvaccinated. And this is your evidence that my belief is wrong? Or are you taking issue with my use of the word “prevent?” If that’s the case, then I’ll change it “drastically reduces.”

Yes. Regardless of the pro-forma conclusions, those raw numbers only show effectiveness against a positive test (developing a 'case'). Once you have it the trajectories are essentially the same, 6.2% of all unvaxxed cases progress to hospitalization and 17.5% of those hospitalized unvaxxed go on to die while 6.4% of the vaxxed cases progress to hospitalization and of those hospitalized 20.4% go on to die (slightly worse for the vaccinated) ergo it does not protect against hospitalization or death after you contract the disease, but likely protects against contracting a detectable case. I say likely because some of the data is from a time only shortly after vaccine rollout when only those 65+ were eligible to get it as well as being from a limited number of states/hospital systems and still to this day not all states capture information on vaccine status. The data was specifically chosen to be from a time when Delta was becoming dominant (as shown by its prevalence being less than 50% initially becoming >50% later in the interval). I certainly would expect a higher number of cases would be unvaxxed but cannot estimate the level of accuracy of 92%

If you question the accuracy of any of the numbers, you should probably question them all

 

[BugI02]

People do weird things when confronted with the unexpected.
One of those things is to repeat a motion that the body has frequently performed.

So the progressives rub one off?

 

[BugI02]

And what the press never seemed to realize that they created and fed that particular part of his candidacy and presidency. Trump was delighted to troll them, because it got him and his message (no matter how garbled,) out there.

So we had President Selfie, followed by President Troll, and now President ???? (to many adjectives fit there.) The bar has been getting lower and lower as the decades crawl by. But then you look back and you realize that no President was a Saint.

But ... but ... no more mean tweets!

I wonder just how bad it will have to get before the neverTrumps fold

 

[jsharmon7]

Yes. Regardless of the pro-forma conclusions, those raw numbers only show effectiveness against a positive test (developing a 'case'). Once you have it the trajectories are essentially the same, 6.2% of all unvaxxed cases progress to hospitalization and 17.5% of those hospitalized unvaxxed go on to die while 6.4% of the vaxxed cases progress to hospitalization and of those hospitalized 20.4% go on to die (slightly worse for the vaccinated) ergo it does not protect against hospitalization or death after you contract the disease, but likely protects against contracting a detectable case. I say likely because some of the data is from a time only shortly after vaccine rollout when only those 65+ were eligible to get it as well as being from a limited number of states/hospital systems and still to this day not all states capture information on vaccine status. The data was specifically chosen to be from a time when Delta was becoming dominant (as shown by its prevalence being less than 50% initially becoming >50% later in the interval). I certainly would expect a higher number of cases would be unvaxxed but cannot estimate the level of accuracy of 92%

If you question the accuracy of any of the numbers, you should probably question them all

I’m not questioning the numbers at all, I’m questioning the conclusions you’re drawing from them. What I’m reading is that 90% of the cases are unvaccinated, but you’re saying that doesn’t matter because once you get it the chances of a bad outcome hold steady across both options. If that’s true, then it ABSOLUTELY matters. If I get this virus, I have the same chances of dying from it, regardless of vaccination status. Option A gives you a >90% chance of having to roll those dice, and Option B gives you <10% chance of rolling those dice. I know which option I’m choosing.

 

[BugI02]

Fellow Democrats? Who do you think you're talking too?


In the last twenty years of voting in every election, I only can recall voting for one Democrat.

And I'm not defending her, I'm pointing out a logical fallacy.

My point is that anyone hesitant can't say, "Kamala is the reason I'm not taking the vaccine". Is she the reason you're hesitant (making an assumption here)? If not, then she's not the source.


I thought is conservatives were suppose to be the logical ones.

 

[Alpo]

But ... but ... no more mean tweets!

I wonder just how bad it will have to get before the neverTrumps fold

Speaking of mean tweets. I don't know how to verify that this was actually sent by The Donald, but it's making it's way around Twitter and news outlets.

 

[HoughMade]

Then there's this just out...

Former CDC Director Gives Alarming Statistic on Fully Vaccinated COVID Deaths

townhall.com

If anyone is interested...which I sense no one is....

In order for those numbers to mean anything, one has to know the relative vaccination rates for the people who, by age or preexisting condition, were more likely to die from Covid...and a lot more data points.

I am going to super-simplify this because it is very complex...and I have to get back to work. Example- take 1000 people over 70 with preexisting health conditions. I think we should all be able to agree that these are the people more likely to die from Covid, regardless. What is the vaccination rate? In Indiana, it's in excess of 90% for these people. Just for the sake of argument, let's say 900 people in this group are vaccinated and 100 are not. This means 9 times more vaccinated people have to die than unnvaccinated for the death rate to be the same simply because there are 9 times more vaccinated people.

However, in this article, they are saying 40% of deaths are vaccinated and 60% are unvaccinated. Let's say 10 people died out of the 1000. That's 4 vaccinated and 6 unvaccinated. However, that is 4 out of 900 vaccinated and while 6 out of 100 unnvaccinated. Meaning, .44% vaccinated died while 6% of unvaccinated died. In this example, people who were unnvaccinated in this most vulnerable group were 15 times more likely to die than vaccinated.

Now, I used round numbers for example (and time constraints), but the stats are backing this general 9 to 20 times more likely to die range in the vulnerable population. When one talks raw numbers, it leaves out the fact that those who are most likely to die are also the greatest percentage vaccinated. Therefore the raw numbers of death among the vaccinated look "alarming"....that is until it is realized that the overwhelming majority of these people are vaccinated and are less likely to die than the unvaccinated...there are just a lot more of them to begin with.