Looking for .22LR rifle that works for me

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  • doddg

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    I count the #/ rds in the 1" circles in a row to come up with a %.
    I use that % to compare accuracy of one rifle to another rifle.
    These are all good rifles & I know I'm the X factor with my many bad habits & your experience will be different.

    The benchmark I use is 80% accuracy (20/25 rds in the 5 circles in 1 row).
    Disclaimer:
    some rifles have been shot more than others & not all with the same ammo.
    It's not an apples to apples comparison.
    I looked at 100s of targets, though.

    Here is the ranking so far (subject to change if I improve my technique :)):
    1st place: CZ 455 Varmint bull barrel (bolt)
    (by a wide margin)

    2nd place = Savage A22 bull barrel (semi)
    3rd place = CZ 512 (semi)
    (2nd & third place by a close margin)

    4th place = Ruger Precision Rifle (bolt)
    5th place = Savage FV-SR (bolt)
    (4th & 5th place by a close margin)
     
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    TJ Kackowski

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    I count the #/ rds in the 1" circles in a row to come up with a %.
    I use that % to compare accuracy of one rifle to another rifle.
    These are all good rifles & I know I'm the X factor with my many bad habits & your experience will be different.

    The benchmark I use is 80% accuracy (20/25 rds in the 5 circles in 1 row).
    Disclaimer:
    some rifles have been shot more than others & not all with the same ammo.
    It's not an apples to apples comparison.
    I looked at 100s of targets for the .

    Here is the ranking so far (subject to change if I improve my technique :)):
    1st place: CZ 455 Varmint bull barrel (bolt)
    (by a big %)

    2nd place = Savage A22 bull barrel (semi)
    3rd place = CZ 512 (semi)
    (2nd & third place % very close)

    4th place = Ruger Precision Rifle (bolt)
    5th place = Savage FV-SR (bolt)
    (4th & 5th place % very close)
    Sounds like you may be selling a few more rifles in the not too distant future. Trim that herd down to just the tack drivers and buy more ammo for further testing.
     

    T-DOGG

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    I count the #/ rds in the 1" circles in a row to come up with a %.
    I use that % to compare accuracy of one rifle to another rifle.
    These are all good rifles & I know I'm the X factor with my many bad habits & your experience will be different.

    The benchmark I use is 80% accuracy (20/25 rds in the 5 circles in 1 row).
    Disclaimer:
    some rifles have been shot more than others & not all with the same ammo.
    It's not an apples to apples comparison.
    I looked at 100s of targets for the .

    Here is the ranking so far (subject to change if I improve my technique :)):
    1st place: CZ 455 Varmint bull barrel (bolt)
    (by a big %)

    2nd place = Savage A22 bull barrel (semi)
    3rd place = CZ 512 (semi)
    (2nd & third place % very close)

    4th place = Ruger Precision Rifle (bolt)
    5th place = Savage FV-SR (bolt)
    (4th & 5th place % very close)
    Precision vs Accuracy

    Why are you not measuring your groups with something like a set of calipers? Regardless of where the shots place in or outside the bullseye, your method is just comparing your accuracy and not the precision of each rifle.

    If you want to compare doddg vs doddg, keep at it. Your shooting has greatly improved and it shows in your targets. You can shoot these rimfires well.

    If you want to compare rifle vs rifle, measure the groups with something like a tape measure, calipers, phone app, etc. Otherwise I don't think you are fairly assessing the rifles.
     

    doddg

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    Sounds like you may be selling a few more rifles in the not too distant future. Trim that herd down to just the tack drivers and buy more ammo for further testing.

    Exactly. :thumbsup:
    So far, I feel like I have 3 potential tack drivers once I "get into the game."
    I originally intended to have 1 semi & 1 bolt.
    That led to adding a lever & a pump.
    That added to multiple semis & bolts.
    My idea of fun. :rockwoot:

    I've had much fun & frustration with different rifles, just not with quite as much frenzy :laugh:, but you are 100% correct:
    - time to trim the herd.

    As always, your recommendations are spot on. :coffee:
     
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    Precision vs Accuracy

    Why are you not measuring your groups with something like a set of calipers? Regardless of where the shots place in or outside the bullseye, your method is just comparing your accuracy and not the precision of each rifle.

    If you want to compare doddg vs doddg, keep at it. Your shooting has greatly improved and it shows in your targets. You can shoot these rimfires well.

    If you want to compare rifle vs rifle, measure the groups with something like a tape measure, calipers, phone app, etc. Otherwise I don't think you are fairly assessing the rifles.
    Agreed. When testing a gun and ammo, it makes no difference where those bullets go, that can be adjusted later when you decide what combo you're going to use. Now, how close together the holes are, that is what matters at this point. Not to mention it uses a whole lot less ammo since you're not constantly adjusting your sights for each ammo tested.
    That and using ammo that I'd best describe as, and I'm being charitable, as meh for target shooting. Other than the CCI SV all your ammo is plinking grade. Get a few types of lower tier actual target grade ammo and you'll see what a difference decent ammo can make. It isn't really that much more expensive, the last SK Standard+ I bought was $3 a brick more that CCI SV, the Eley Action about the same, and both out shoot CCI SV by a large margin in multiple rifles. For my personal testing, I use a standard of at least 5, 5 shot groups to determine if a ammo is something that is worth pursuing. Less than one box and I'm done.
     

    zachcz

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    Precision vs Accuracy

    Why are you not measuring your groups with something like a set of calipers? Regardless of where the shots place in or outside the bullseye, your method is just comparing your accuracy and not the precision of each rifle.

    If you want to compare doddg vs doddg, keep at it. Your shooting has greatly improved and it shows in your targets. You can shoot these rimfires well.

    If you want to compare rifle vs rifle, measure the groups with something like a tape measure, calipers, phone app, etc. Otherwise I don't think you are fairly assessing the rifles.
    agreed. That’s what I’ve been preaching to him as well.
     

    rala

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    Agreed. I think what's missing from the discussion is for the shooter to develop the honest ability to call his shots. When the shot breaks you know with reasonable confidence where it will strike the target. It requires consistent technique and follow- through. It doesn't have to be text book perfect technique, but consistent. From there you can start analyzing groups, sight settings, rifles and ammo.
     

    T-DOGG

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    doddg,
    I challenge you to go back through all of your targets and measure them by group size, in inches, center to center. Then get a spreadsheet going. List your best groups in order. Then figure out the average size of your groups and list them by ammo brand. I am willing to bet you find that your scoring system using your fine tuned doddgometer has been incorrect and you are discarding guns that actually shoot better/smaller groups than others. Certainly you aren't going to turn down a challenge? And it costs you nothing, except time, but you're retired so you have "unlimited" time. You can do this man. Show us the results. Numbers man, numbers.

    In all seriousness, you keep talking about the "X" factor. You are correct. You are certainly, most definitely, part of the "X" factor. With your current skill level, rifles and ammo combinations being factored in, you are not going to shoot every round into the bullseye every single time. And I say that with respect, because I can't do that either.

    You are adding way too many variables into the equation and your grading scale is flawed. Pick one rifle, do an in depth ammo comparison, measure the groups, then evaluate. Take another rifle, do the same. Then compare the rifles to each other.
     

    T-DOGG

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    Okay, let's get further into explanation here. The below picture has two groups consisting of 5 shots each.

    The top group measures 0.673" center to center.
    The bottom group measures 0.758" center to center.

    The top group is numerically smaller. The rifle was more precise with that group. This would matter when comparing how well a particular rifle shoots a particular ammo.

    However, that top group only placed 4 out 5 hits into the bullseye (bullseye including the black outer circle). So that group was 80% accurate at hitting the bullseye. The bottom group placed 5 out of 5 hits into the bullseye, so that group was 100% accurate at hitting the bullseye. The shooter was more accurate with the bottom group.

    If I was comparing rifles and ammo, to determine which combination has the most precision, I would pick the top group that measures 0.673".

    If I was in a bullseye competition, to determine which shooter had the most accuracy, I would pick the bottom group that had 5 out of 5 hits in the bullseye.


    VVtLt0v.jpg
     

    doddg

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    Precision vs Accuracy

    Why are you not measuring your groups with something like a set of calipers? Regardless of where the shots place in or outside the bullseye, your method is just comparing your accuracy and not the precision of each rifle.

    If you want to compare doddg vs doddg, keep at it. Your shooting has greatly improved and it shows in your targets. You can shoot these rimfires well.

    If you want to compare rifle vs rifle, measure the groups with something like a tape measure, calipers, phone app, etc. Otherwise I don't think you are fairly assessing the rifles.

    Your point is well-advised. :thumbsup:
    I get it: go with the gun with the best precision & learn the art of shooting eliminating the human factors (& my bad habits which abound) & it will grow into accuracy after & if I improve my skill set.
    My default goal, my "feel good/satisfaction," is # of rounds in the circles :ugh:.
    If a rifle has precision, I must be able to dial it in toward the bullseye for accuracy.
    For consistency, I know I'd have to use better ammo, which I have a few hundred rounds, but saving that for rifles that prove themselves first.

    If I can't dial precision groups over to the bullseye, it could just speak to my $100ish scopes, & of course, my habits.
    Since I can't yet master even 50 yds at this point, I want to dedicate at least 1 rifle for 100 yds, for anger/frustration management. :lmfao:

    But, to your point of calipers, now that I'm narrowing accuracy with a couple of guns, the time is coming to get out the calipers so I don't let the wrong rifle go till I learn the craft.
     

    doddg

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    Agreed. When testing a gun and ammo, it makes no difference where those bullets go, that can be adjusted later when you decide what combo you're going to use. Now, how close together the holes are, that is what matters at this point. Not to mention it uses a whole lot less ammo since you're not constantly adjusting your sights for each ammo tested.
    That and using ammo that I'd best describe as, and I'm being charitable, as meh for target shooting. Other than the CCI SV all your ammo is plinking grade. Get a few types of lower tier actual target grade ammo and you'll see what a difference decent ammo can make. It isn't really that much more expensive, the last SK Standard+ I bought was $3 a brick more that CCI SV, the Eley Action about the same, and both out shoot CCI SV by a large margin in multiple rifles. For my personal testing, I use a standard of at least 5, 5 shot groups to determine if a ammo is something that is worth pursuing. Less than one box and I'm done.

    You are so right on so many levels.
    I am guilty on so many of the same with my glaring inexperience with all things guns & ammo.
    I am in this for the journey with mistakes littering the way, but that is my joy: the learning.
    You are so right about my ammo usage.
    I have bought some & Aeroflyer even gave me a box of some of the ammo which you speak.
    I have been saving it for whatever rifle or two that fairs well with the CCI SV or Aguila SE.

    I try to use a different ammo brand each range visit so I can determine which works best for each rifle.
    Unfortunately, as you say, this entails starting each range session with adjusting the sights & then when I move to the 1" circles it takes more refinement.
    Sounds like using your "formula" for ammo testing would be 1 row of my 1" circles I've been using.
    Curious, I've read where a person should shoot some rounds through when using a different ammo to acclimate the barrel to that ammo.
    Appreciate you taking the time like others have since my inexperience drips like the ice melting from the trees. :laugh:
     

    doddg

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    Agreed. I think what's missing from the discussion is for the shooter to develop the honest ability to call his shots. When the shot breaks you know with reasonable confidence where it will strike the target. It requires consistent technique and follow- through. It doesn't have to be text book perfect technique, but consistent. From there you can start analyzing groups, sight settings, rifles and ammo.

    Just plain ignorance on my part. :ugh:
    In my experience in trying to learn this hobby, I've not heard but 3 times I have heard the expression, "calling your shots," but was too embarrassed to ask what it meant & since it is assumed that I knew what it meant. :scratch:

    I so rarely heard or read about "calling your shots" & assumed that it was a finesse for those who were competing, not just plinking targets by their lonesome.
    I'll google it today & first thing is this Bushnell site:

    :https://www.bushnell.com/expert-advice/bu-blog-calling-your-shots.html

    I have no comprehension of knowing where a round will break and/or strike the target at this point.
    I'm focused on just trying to get inside that 1" circle.
    I thought I was learning & getting smarter at this hobby, but my progress is obviously stinted. :facepalm:
    I was so happy when I left the range Thursday, finally getting closer to narrowing down the rifles that were working for me.
    I enjoy the distraction of the hobby since it helps take away the friend of arthritis that follows wherever I go for a spell.
     

    doddg

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    Okay, let's get further into explanation here. The below picture has two groups consisting of 5 shots each.

    The top group measures 0.673" center to center.
    The bottom group measures 0.758" center to center.

    The top group is numerically smaller. The rifle was more precise with that group. This would matter when comparing how well a particular rifle shoots a particular ammo.

    However, that top group only placed 4 out 5 hits into the bullseye (bullseye including the black outer circle). So that group was 80% accurate at hitting the bullseye. The bottom group placed 5 out of 5 hits into the bullseye, so that group was 100% accurate at hitting the bullseye. The shooter was more accurate with the bottom group.

    If I was comparing rifles and ammo, to determine which combination has the most precision, I would pick the top group that measures 0.673".

    If I was in a bullseye competition, to determine which shooter had the most accuracy, I would pick the bottom group that had 5 out of 5 hits in the bullseye.


    VVtLt0v.jpg



    Thanks T-DOGG, I appreciate the practical instruction, & have enjoyed the same previously from others.
    I totally get it when the rounds are all in the neighborhood of each other.
    Why not to go for just the accuracy when precision is right there on the table next to the accuracy before your eyes just waiting for scope adjustment.

    I have been slow to sell any rifles mostly b/c after literally adjusting 10 times & tweaking it & there are still rounds that are disparate in their placement & other rifles are not, I stay with the rifles that are at least in the ballpark, before thinking of the calipers, of which I'm finally there.

    When the rounds get at the point where they are at in your pic, I would be reaching for the calipers.
    In the above pic I would eagerly look forward to going 1 click over to the right on both pics then get out the calipers.
     

    TJ Kackowski

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    Just plain ignorance on my part. :ugh:
    In my experience in trying to learn this hobby, I've not heard but 3 times I have heard the expression, "calling your shots," but was too embarrassed to ask what it meant & since it is assumed that I knew what it meant. :scratch:

    I so rarely heard or read about "calling your shots" & assumed that it was a finesse for those who were competing, not just plinking targets by their lonesome.
    I'll google it today & first thing is this Bushnell site:

    :https://www.bushnell.com/expert-advice/bu-blog-calling-your-shots.html

    I have no comprehension of knowing where a round will break and/or strike the target at this point.
    I'm focused on just trying to get inside that 1" circle.
    I thought I was learning & getting smarter at this hobby, but my progress is obviously stinted. :facepalm:
    I was so happy when I left the range Thursday, finally getting closer to narrowing down the rifles that were working for me.
    I enjoy the distraction of the hobby since it helps take away the friend of arthritis that follows wherever I go for a spell.
    Calling your shot is a skill like any other that takes lots of practice. You will need to start with baby steps like any other skill. The beauty of calling your shot is that if you know you sent a round down range that wasn't on target, you don't need to count in in your group size since you knew it would be off the mark from the start.

    Start by noting any gross movements you may have made when breaking a shot ... sweat dripped into you eye causing you to flinch ... somebody made a loud noise behind you startling you ... things like that can cause your shot to be off.

    Next move on to noting where your reticle is when the shot broke ... is it still where you were aiming or did something cause it to move away from your aim point?

    The final step is to note where the reticle is in relation to your aim point ... did it move left or right ... up or down?

    In order for this to work, you must hold the same point of aim for each shot and you don't adjust your sights after each shot. You shoot our string, analyze your group, then determine if the sights need to be adjusted.

    As noted in a previous post, in order to evaluate precision, you don't need all the shots to be within any sort of boundary ... just grouped together. By calling your shot, you can tighten your groups a bit more by eliminating any shots you knew would not be in the group.
     

    doddg

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    Calling your shot is a skill like any other that takes lots of practice. You will need to start with baby steps like any other skill. The beauty of calling your shot is that if you know you sent a round down range that wasn't on target, you don't need to count in in your group size since you knew it would be off the mark from the start.

    Start by noting any gross movements you may have made when breaking a shot ... sweat dripped into you eye causing you to flinch ... somebody made a loud noise behind you startling you ... things like that can cause your shot to be off.

    Next move on to noting where your reticle is when the shot broke ... is it still where you were aiming or did something cause it to move away from your aim point?

    The final step is to note where the reticle is in relation to your aim point ... did it move left or right ... up or down?

    In order for this to work, you must hold the same point of aim for each shot and you don't adjust your sights after each shot. You shoot our string, analyze your group, then determine if the sights need to be adjusted.

    As noted in a previous post, in order to evaluate precision, you don't need all the shots to be within any sort of boundary ... just grouped together. By calling your shot, you can tighten your groups a bit more by eliminating any shots you knew would not be in the group.

    That does help crystalize it in my mind, fleshing it out. :thumbsup:
    This will cause me to slow down b/c I have to fight impatience every minute of my life generally & with shooting even more since impatience really comes back to bite me at the range. :faint:
    My mind races 110 mph, which doesn't suit me well when shooting.
    If I'm using a semi, & I get a great shot off I want to hurry & get another off while I'm "in the tunnel."
    Hasn't work out too well for me, though. :dunno:

    Sometimes I just know when I pull the trigger, it isn't right. :scratch:
    But, to confuse me, sometimes I'll get 1 or even 4 shots "in the tunnel" but the last goes awry & it drives me crazy, since I'm not aware of any change.
    I think I've done everything the same & it so "unfair" that I blew a great group. AGAIN.
    Or, when the first of a series is perfect then the next 3 or 4 go in the crapper. :wallbash:
     
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    You are so right on so many levels.
    I am guilty on so many of the same with my glaring inexperience with all things guns & ammo.
    I am in this for the journey with mistakes littering the way, but that is my joy: the learning.
    You are so right about my ammo usage.
    I have bought some & Aeroflyer even gave me a box of some of the ammo which you speak.
    I have been saving it for whatever rifle or two that fairs well with the CCI SV or Aguila SE.

    I try to use a different ammo brand each range visit so I can determine which works best for each rifle.
    Unfortunately, as you say, this entails starting each range session with adjusting the sights & then when I move to the 1" circles it takes more refinement.
    Sounds like using your "formula" for ammo testing would be 1 row of my 1" circles I've been using.
    Curious, I've read where a person should shoot some rounds through when using a different ammo to acclimate the barrel to that ammo.
    Appreciate you taking the time like others have since my inexperience drips like the ice melting from the trees. :laugh:
    Copy: I am guilty on so many of the same with my glaring inexperience with all things guns & ammo.
    Everybody has to start from scratch so don't beat yourself up. You've got the net to help you out and as you've seen there's a lot of folks more than willing to give you tips and hints. There's a lot of experience here. Just as way of example I've been shooting for about 45 of my 58 years, and in the distant past I shot centerfire benchrest and muzzleloaders competitively on a regional basis, along with competitive 22 lr locally. And I'm a piker compared to some of the others who post here.


    Copy: I am in this for the journey with mistakes littering the way, but that is my joy: the learning.

    Great attitude!!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup::thumbsup:



    Copy: I have been saving it for whatever rifle or two that fairs well with the CCI SV or Aguila SE.

    You really need to test that ammo first. Just because it is the better ammo there is no guarantee the rifle better with the cheaper ammo is going to better with the good stuff. That is the legendary apples to oranges comparison. Use the cheaper stuff for practice and honing skills, then once you're comfortable test the rifles with the better ammo, and then finally decide which one(s) to keep. If it was me, I'd keep shooting the rifles you have with the ammo you have. Once you think your skill reaches the limit of your current set ups, and you'll know when that happens, then test using the better ammo.
    What you've been doing isn't a waste of ammo, you are getting a lot of experience, just the process could be better. Again, measure those groups! It is a very simple matter to adjust your zero later.

    Copy: Curious, I've read where a person should shoot some rounds through when using a different ammo to acclimate the barrel to that ammo.

    Yes, that is true to a certain extent, I have even tested it. I used a Tikka T1x and two Ruger Americans. With the Tikka I found that changing to Eley I needed to shoot a few rounds before it settled down, then when changing to something different the first group tended to better than normal with that particular ammo. Changing from, for example, from CCI to Federal to Aguila it made little to no difference, everything was within the normal group to group variation. With the Rugers I couldn't really if it made a difference or not. Basically IMO it takes a very precise rifle to be noticeable.
     

    Twangbanger

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    Just plain ignorance on my part. :ugh:
    In my experience in trying to learn this hobby, I've not heard but 3 times I have heard the expression, "calling your shots," but was too embarrassed to ask what it meant & since it is assumed that I knew what it meant. :scratch:

    I so rarely heard or read about "calling your shots" & assumed that it was a finesse for those who were competing, not just plinking targets by their lonesome.
    I'll google it today & first thing is this Bushnell site:

    :https://www.bushnell.com/expert-advice/bu-blog-calling-your-shots.html

    I have no comprehension of knowing where a round will break and/or strike the target at this point.
    I'm focused on just trying to get inside that 1" circle.
    I thought I was learning & getting smarter at this hobby, but my progress is obviously stinted. :facepalm:
    I was so happy when I left the range Thursday, finally getting closer to narrowing down the rifles that were working for me.
    I enjoy the distraction of the hobby since it helps take away the friend of arthritis that follows wherever I go for a spell.
    You mentioned the concept of "dialing the shots into the circle."

    You need to understand that insufficient shot-calling ability can prevent you from being able to do that, through no fault of the gun.

    Your thought process seems to be:

    1) Find a "good gun" to learn with
    2) Then - use that "good gun" to then go learn marksmanship.

    That sequence is misguided, because although a really terrible gun can prevent you from learning, you need to have a certain amount of marksmanship ability, to be able to make judgements about the gun. Truly terrible guns, meaning the kind that will prevent you from learning, are actually quite rare.

    Guns are a bell curve. One "tail-end" is terrible accuracy (few), the other tail is outstanding accuracy, and the majority of guns are in-between. Modern manufacturing techniques are good at producing large quantities of guns in the "medium" region of the bell curve. If you follow quality manufacturing concepts, most guns fall into an "acceptable" range. Producing a gun which falls outside that range, actually requires a substantial deviation of some type, (screw-ups on the bottom end, or tremendous attention to detail at the upper end).

    When you are dealing with the vast number of guns "in between," you are the biggest factor.

    In this thread, you keep nodding your head and saying you get it. But you keep going to the range and posting up photos of you doing the exact same thing again. That's why people don't think you get it. You show an ability to be scientific about everything except the most important variable, which is you.

    Let me give you an example about "calling shots." I have a friend who's really into lasers on defensive handguns. We shoot each other's guns sometimes, and he had a Sig Legion that he was using to scatter shots around a 2 inch circle. Decent "accuracy" in terms of being able to put fear into that sticky-dot, but his groups were large ("precision" not so good). He let me shoot it, and I noticed it was putting all its shots about 6-8 inches high and right at fairly close range, when using the laser. But my groups were substantially smaller. Out of curiosity, I fired another magazine using the sights instead of the laser. The shots went dead on the dot, believe it or not (this was obviously not a "Friday" gun, when the employees were in a hurry to get home). The sights are not adjustable, which probably influenced his desire to use the laser, since most of his guns have fixed sights and the laser allows you to "bolt adjustability onto" a gun that is not adjustable.

    I mentioned this to him, and he shot it some more with the laser. The shots went to center...but all around it again. I pointed out my small group significantly up and to the right. I watched him some more, and it was apparent he was jerking shots low and to the left. He agreed with me, that he must have "dialed" his laser in to compensate for his errors. We spent some time working on technique, and I showed him that if he calmed down and focused on eliminating the slop and recoil anticipation in his technique, he could in fact get those laser-shots to land right where mine did.

    But when we left the range that day, he went home with everything the same. He kept on trucking, because it was his defensive gun and that was "good enough" for him. (And that's not necessarily wrong, because in a stressful defense situation, he would probably revert back to old habits anyway). But he was not interested in changing anything or learning anything further, and felt like further attention to "shot calling" was over his head. It was not worth the effort because he was getting the results he wanted.

    Now SIG Legions are one of those guns I talk about above, where good manufacturing techniques are used, and the guns produce the performance that is expected. They're not $3k target pistols, but they fall very respectably and (most importantly) consistently into the middle of the curve. If the person I'm referring to ever learns to shoot right...he would start missing with that gun, because his shots will then drift high and right. (Note: he got rid of that gun and passed through several others since this story happened, not that it matters).

    He and his wife are constantly questioning whether their lasers are sighted in right, or have come loose, etc. Because they have limited "shot calling" ability, they have trouble "getting it dialed in" from one range trip to the next, and are generally chasing bullet holes around when making adjustments on their lasers.

    I will also relate that he and his wife have bought, sold, and traded probably $10,000 worth of guns in the time I've known them. That's equivalent to a _lot_ of practice ammo. They "lose confidence" in something, and trade it. They are each trying to find the "perfect" gun for them.

    They enjoy it, and there's something to be said for that.
    But they remind me a lot of you.

    So let's go back to the example of my friend and his wife. What is the "X" factor in his case? If you were in position to advise them, knowing what I just related...what would you tell them? Go spend another ten grand trading guns? Or stop treating the "X" factor as an intrinsic, unchangeable constant in the universe, and work on figuring out what it is?
     
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    T-DOGG

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    I've been working on a few things that are issues I've noticed over time, actually more like inconsistencies, because I've always known about them, but I don't consistently control them. I always told myself "it doesn't matter that much". WRONG!

    1) How I grip the rifle and the physical pressures I'm putting on the rifle. Am I squeezing it to tight, am I too loose, am I pulling the rifle back into my shoulder, etc.

    2) My finger placement on the trigger and my trigger squeeze. Too much finger, too little, just right. Am I yanking, slowly squeezing, follow through, etc.

    3) My breathing. I noticed this ALOT today. I am breathing too heavily and causing too much movement. I was able to focus on that today and really slowed down and controlled my breathing. I felt WAY steadier with my aim after that.

    I know this sounds like rookie stuff, but I've been shooting guns on a regular basis for 10 years now and I'm just now addressing these issues all together at once. It's one thing to read stuff on the internet by other people, but it's another thing to actually go out and practice for yourself. I'm looking forward to more practice.
     

    doddg

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    Copy: I am guilty on so many of the same with my glaring inexperience with all things guns & ammo.
    Everybody has to start from scratch so don't beat yourself up. You've got the net to help you out and as you've seen there's a lot of folks more than willing to give you tips and hints. There's a lot of experience here. Just as way of example I've been shooting for about 45 of my 58 years, and in the distant past I shot centerfire benchrest and muzzleloaders competitively on a regional basis, along with competitive 22 lr locally. And I'm a piker compared to some of the others who post here.


    Copy: I am in this for the journey with mistakes littering the way, but that is my joy: the learning.

    Great attitude!!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup::thumbsup:



    Copy: I have been saving it for whatever rifle or two that fairs well with the CCI SV or Aguila SE.

    You really need to test that ammo first. Just because it is the better ammo there is no guarantee the rifle better with the cheaper ammo is going to better with the good stuff. That is the legendary apples to oranges comparison. Use the cheaper stuff for practice and honing skills, then once you're comfortable test the rifles with the better ammo, and then finally decide which one(s) to keep. If it was me, I'd keep shooting the rifles you have with the ammo you have. Once you think your skill reaches the limit of your current set ups, and you'll know when that happens, then test using the better ammo.
    What you've been doing isn't a waste of ammo, you are getting a lot of experience, just the process could be better. Again, measure those groups! It is a very simple matter to adjust your zero later.

    Copy: Curious, I've read where a person should shoot some rounds through when using a different ammo to acclimate the barrel to that ammo.

    Yes, that is true to a certain extent, I have even tested it. I used a Tikka T1x and two Ruger Americans. With the Tikka I found that changing to Eley I needed to shoot a few rounds before it settled down, then when changing to something different the first group tended to better than normal with that particular ammo. Changing from, for example, from CCI to Federal to Aguila it made little to no difference, everything was within the normal group to group variation. With the Rugers I couldn't really if it made a difference or not. Basically IMO it takes a very precise rifle to be noticeable.

    Thanks for the encouragement & further insights.
    It will be an exciting to check out my better ammo with the rifles that rise to the top.
    Most of that is evident from what I've already done, but others are so close it will take the calipers to determine their fate.

    Once, at the range, one of the older guys (like myself), gave me 5 rounds of Lupua ammo to shoot & the precision & accuracy improved immediately, not radically, but noticeably than the ammo I was using (don't remember the details).

    At this point I have narrowed it down to 2 great semis:
    - CZ 512 (bought from scootn103)
    - Savage A22 (Ggreen has already proven it with his posted targets)

    And, 3 great bolts:
    - RPR (bought from Aeroflyer b/c it had an upgraded Green Mountain barrel)
    - Savage FV bull barrel (bought from Zachcz, of which I shot more than Zach did when he owned it :dunno: )
    - CZ 455 Varmint bull barrel (bought from Rala that his targets & even in my amateur hands, has risen to the very top of my list in only 1 week.
     
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