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BigRed

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I didn't want to get involved in this, but some of you forced my hand.
All the "taxation" and "state's rights" is crap. Historically documented crap.
If you want to know their motivations AT THE TIME, you don't go to some Lost Causer or modern apologist. You go to the original documents - the Articles of Secession.
And they universally said the cause was slavery. All of them. Sometimes phrased as "our peculiar institution." With a few red herrings thrown in.
Read it. Understand.
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states

ETA: This does not mean that the North fought to free the slaves initially. That came later. It was originally about preserving the Union. But Slavery was why the South seceded.

Look deeper.

As an example..

 

jamil

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Look deeper.

As an example..

While looking deeper you should probably consider the other sources not cherry-picked for giving the answer you want. The history, all of it, is not kind to the secessionists. The South was not on the right side. Neither was the North--they ****ed up a lot as well, but that's beside the point.
 

rob63

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I don’t get it the unrelenting support Libertarians have for the confederacy. I dunno. Maybe they're a sort of wet dream or something that Libertarians have. You guys are usually consistent on property rights. But you guys tend to **** all over that on this subject. The South was not the good guys. The North wasn’t all that grand either. I blame the handling of the aftermath for the treatment of Blacks. The North won the war but it lost the peace.
I have often been puzzled by this exact question. I may be full of it, but I think the root of it is that Libertarians like the notion that people should be free to decide that they want to peacefully separate from a nation if they believe that the government of that nation no longer suits them. I understand that, I agree with it.

The problem is that the South wanted to peacefully separate for the worst possible reason imaginable, thus, the overwhelming desire to ignore the reality of that and accept the post-war Lost Cause mythology instead.
 

jamil

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I have often been puzzled by this exact question. I may be full of it, but I think the root of it is that Libertarians like the notion that people should be free to decide that they want to peacefully separate from a nation if they believe that the government of that nation no longer suits them. I understand that, I agree with it.

The problem is that the South wanted to peacefully separate for the worst possible reason imaginable, thus, the overwhelming desire to ignore the reality of that and accept the post-war Lost Cause mythology instead.
I think this is true as well. The libertarian bias in me wants to see people succeed. My instinct was to support Brexit before I really knew anything about it. Maybe it's the same thing for the Civil War. I can't think of any libertarians I know off hand who are not supportive of the South, and claim that the war had nothing to do with Slavery, when they have to ignore a lot of historical documents that prove it was.

Many years ago I thought the same thing, that "states rights" was the primary issue with secession. Then I moved to an area that figured prominently in the CW. I became interested in the history and started reading a lot about it. Not just books from the various players. The legislative history as well. The thing that got me digging into the other side of it was that for a would-be nation that believed in states rights, Legislators from Southern slave states sure didn't give a flying **** about states' rights when it wasn't theirs at issue, and typically the primary states' rights they cared about was their right to perpetuate the institution of Slavery.
 

BigRed

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While looking deeper you should probably consider the other sources not cherry-picked for giving the answer you want. The history, all of it, is not kind to the secessionists. The South was not on the right side. Neither was the North--they ****ed up a lot as well, but that's beside the point.


How long has it been since you went back and read both volumes?
 

jamil

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It's a simple question.
What? Your question or mine? I think your question is irrelevant. The sources I've read on the subject are pretty old. Not all. Most. they haven't changed. Many have been in the public domain for many years, the same text that it's been since last printed.

Now, if it's really a different question that you're asking, why don't you ask what you actually mean?
 

BigRed

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What? Your question or mine? I think your question is irrelevant. The sources I've read on the subject are pretty old. Not all. Most. they haven't changed. Many have been in the public domain for many years, the same text that it's been since last printed.

Now, if it's really a different question that you're asking, why don't you ask what you actually mean?
I am simply asking "when is the last time you read Calhoun's "A Disquisition on Government"?

That is all.
 

jamil

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I am simply asking "when is the last time you read Calhoun's "A Disquisition on Government"?

That is all.
Oh. I see,. I strongly suspect your question is not about when the last time I read it was. That book has been out of print for a very long time. It's not like any of the words have changed. So I think you're asking if I read it at all. That probably would have been a more straightforward way to ask it.

The answer is, I don't know if I've read it. I read some of Calhoun's works back when I lived in Missippi, so I may have. If I read it, it would have been in the local library there. And that would mean I did not read the whole thing.

When you mentioned it, I did add it to my Kindle, so I'll probably give it a read when I get to it. One book out of many would not contain convincing words though.
 

nonobaddog

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rob63

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MSNBC finally figured out what happened on January 6th:


"Pro-Trump whites afraid of being replaced attacked the Capitol. That's a race riot.​

Let's call what happened on Jan. 6 what it was."
It's just a hunch, but, ironically, I would be willing to bet that if they bothered to cover BLM taking over the Iowa capitol they would not describe it as a race riot.
 

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