Lessons from 12,000 gunfights

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  • Tom Givens

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    Dec 31, 2014
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    At the Rangemaster Instructor Reunion & Conference we recently held in Shawnee, Oklahoma, John Correia presented an outstanding lecture on what he has observed in watching 12,000 gunfights on video. That’s right, 12,000. Surveillance cameras are everywhere now, and that fact brings us many, many videotaped violent incidents to study.




    Noted trainer Karl Rehn (KR Training, near Austin, TX), attended the conference and he has written up his thoughts on John’s presentation. You can see them at Even more knowledge from the 2017 Rangemaster Instructor Conference ? Notes from KR




    The next instructor reunion and conference will be on June 9-10, 2018, in Athens, GA. If you are a graduate of the Rangemaster instructor program you can register at https://www.eventbrite.com/e/rangemaster-certified-instructor-conferencereunion-tickets-39451499497
     

    cedartop

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    Apr 25, 2010
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    A lot of good and interesting points in the article. I liked the list of seldom used but often trained skills. The following paragraph was one of my favorites.

    If there was one thing I could fix or change about the gun culture, in its present state, it would be greater awareness or concern among those with carry permits about the importance of a quick, effective presentation of the gun from concealment, which would bring with it motivation to carry using better holsters, carry in methods that facilitate meeting realistic standards for draw to first shot times, recognition of the importance of training and proper practice in that skill. This video shows how a slow draw from off-body carry works, but just barely.


     

    hog slayer

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    Last edited:

    Coach

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    Apr 15, 2008
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    A lot of good and interesting points in the article. I liked the list of seldom used but often trained skills. The following paragraph was one of my favorites.

    If there was one thing I could fix or change about the gun culture, in its present state, it would be greater awareness or concern among those with carry permits about the importance of a quick, effective presentation of the gun from concealment, which would bring with it motivation to carry using better holsters, carry in methods that facilitate meeting realistic standards for draw to first shot times, recognition of the importance of training and proper practice in that skill. This video shows how a slow draw from off-body carry works, but just barely.
    You don't want to barely win?
     

    Doug B

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    Feb 19, 2012
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    Wow. Thanks for posting this. Great information. I've taken a couple of training classes that reflected a lot of what was presented here. It was very interesting to see how lessons learned in training can and do apply in the real world. The 80-20 rule is so very true in most aspects of life.
     

    Randy Harris

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    Oct 22, 2012
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    A lot of good and interesting points in the article. I liked the list of seldom used but often trained skills. The following paragraph was one of my favorites.

    If there was one thing I could fix or change about the gun culture, in its present state, it would be greater awareness or concern among those with carry permits about the importance of a quick, effective presentation of the gun from concealment, which would bring with it motivation to carry using better holsters, carry in methods that facilitate meeting realistic standards for draw to first shot times, recognition of the importance of training and proper practice in that skill. This video shows how a slow draw from off-body carry works, but just barely.

    No kidding...how many times do we see dudes that can shoot their pistols pretty well if they have plenty of time but you could time their draw with a sundial..... largely because they are using cheap garbage for carry gear and since that cardboard target has never actually assaulted them in real time they have no concept for just how fast things move when the living breathing bad guy is serious. But I'm sure all that training stuff is probably over rated.....:rolleyes: (sarcasm in full effect)
     

    Vigilant

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    Jul 12, 2008
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    No kidding...how many times do we see dudes that can shoot their pistols pretty well if they have plenty of time but you could time their draw with a sundial..... largely because they are using cheap garbage for carry gear and since that cardboard target has never actually assaulted them in real time they have no concept for just how fast things move when the living breathing bad guy is serious. But I'm sure all that training stuff is probably over rated.....:rolleyes: (sarcasm in full effect)
    Its also too expensive, what with me having to buy the gun, a holster, and 50rounds of fmj, you think I want to pay for a class? Pappy taught me how to shoot when I was 7, what more do I need?
     

    cosermann

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    Tom, thanks for sharing the link!

    I do find it interesting that John hasn't seen any examples of backup guns being used, especially since Massad Ayoob has shared several examples over the years (examples that illustrate most reasons to carry a backup, btw). Not saying it's "common," but it's also not so "rare" that Ayoob can't find incidents to cite for illustrative purposes.

    One thing about watching video clips is that you sometimes don't see the whole thing and miss some of the context. For example, you have no idea by watching a video if the gun used is itself the BUG rather than the primary. In the following example shared by Ayoob, one would have no idea by simply watching a video clip that the BUG was used rather than the primary.

    "In New York some years ago, an off duty cop in winter was carrying his primary handgun under two coats, and his backup Colt Detective Special snub-nose 38 in his overcoat pocket.

    Set upon by two armed robbers, he knew he would not be able to dig under his clothing and draw his duty weapon before being shot by the drawn gun held to his head. On the pretext of reaching for a wallet in his overcoat pocket, he got his hand on his backup Colt, then slapped the gunman’s pistol aside with his free hand as he drew and fired. His bullet went through the gunman’s brain, killing him instantly; the accomplice fled, and was later taken into custody. The officer was uninjured, saved by his backup handgun." [1]

    [1] - https://gundigest.com/article/concealed-carry-should-you-carry-a-back-up-gun-part-1
     
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    cedartop

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    Tom, thanks for sharing the link!

    I do find it interesting that John hasn't seen any examples of backup guns being used, especially since Massad Ayoob has shared several examples over the years (examples that illustrate most reasons to carry a backup, btw). Not saying it's "common," but it's also not so "rare" that Ayoob can't find incidents to cite for illustrative purposes.

    One thing about watching video clips is that you sometimes don't see the whole thing and miss some of the context. For example, you have no idea by watching a video if the gun used is itself the BUG rather than the primary. In the following example shared by Ayoob, one would have no idea by simply watching a video clip that the BUG was used rather than the primary.

    "In New York some years ago, an off duty cop in winter was carrying his primary handgun under two coats, and his backup Colt Detective Special snub-nose 38 in his overcoat pocket.

    Set upon by two armed robbers, he knew he would not be able to dig under his clothing and draw his duty weapon before being shot by the drawn gun held to his head. On the pretext of reaching for a wallet in his overcoat pocket, he got his hand on his backup Colt, then slapped the gunman’s pistol aside with his free hand as he drew and fired. His bullet went through the gunman’s brain, killing him instantly; the accomplice fled, and was later taken into custody. The officer was uninjured, saved by his backup handgun." [1]

    [1] - https://gundigest.com/article/concealed-carry-should-you-carry-a-back-up-gun-part-1


    The way I was understanding it was that there are no examples of someone starting with their primary and then switching to a backup for whatever reason. :dunno:
     

    jsharmon7

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    Nov 24, 2008
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    Freedonia
    The way I was understanding it was that there are no examples of someone starting with their primary and then switching to a backup for whatever reason. :dunno:

    I also question which is the true "primary" in cosermann's example. If I have a full-size 1911 strapped to my ankle and a snubby in my front pocket, I know which I'll get to first.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Oct 3, 2012
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    A lot of good and interesting points in the article. I liked the list of seldom used but often trained skills. The following paragraph was one of my favorites.

    If there was one thing I could fix or change about the gun culture, in its present state, it would be greater awareness or concern among those with carry permits about the importance of a quick, effective presentation of the gun from concealment, which would bring with it motivation to carry using better holsters, carry in methods that facilitate meeting realistic standards for draw to first shot times, recognition of the importance of training and proper practice in that skill. This video shows how a slow draw from off-body carry works, but just barely.

    Shocking, isn't it?

    There's a reason I espouse the "whatever duty caliber pistol you can draw and get 3 "A" box hits at 7y the fastest with is probably what you should carry" test. Capacity, reloading, etc. are all waaay down the list of priorities.
     

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