Knife Fighting Training

[Randy Harris]

There are places where you can carry a knife that you cannot carry a gun. Period. For those of us that travel outside the US (or travel there for work and that work does not include LE, MIL or armed security) then you will NOT be carrying a gun. In that case a knife beats the heck out of nothing at all. All you have are shooting skills? Well that kind of limits your ability to respond when there is no gun to be had... The whole world is not a "shall issue" state.

As to the tired old "not bringing a knife to a gunfight", it is just as dangerous (or more so ) to try to insert a gun into a knife fight when that knife fight started before you heard the opening bell ring. You really need some specific empty hand skills to deal with the knife that is already in play to keep from getting stabbed repeatedly FIRST and THEN access your gun (or knife or sap or blackjack or flame thrower or hand grenade or whatever....). Where do we learn that? In GOOD knife classes.

Now do most knife classes out there focus on "dueling"? Yes many of the more "traditional" martial arts schools focus on that. Just like most of the more "traditional " gun schools historically focused on shooting at 5 yards and farther and did not focus much at all on truly useful pressure tested touching distance solutions (and if you say "speed rock " then you get to put on the dunce cap and go sit in the corner).

If you look at what the Shivworks guys (Craig and Larry and Chris and Cecil) are doing that is not traditional dueling, it is accessing the knife under duress and under actual physical pressure at arms length or closer and using it to open up space, it is not predicated on knife on knife dueling. Craig's Edged Weapons Overview class spends a significant amount of time on fighting in the clinch, accessing your blade and using it to open up the clinch and get away and in using the blade against a disparity of force issue ( 2 vs 1 ) . Also Tom Sotis in his Accessing While Under Attack class focuses on initially reacting with empty hands and then accessing your tools. I taught the same stuff in the Zero To Five Feet class when I was still teaching for Suarez and I teach that same type empty hand vs knife material in my own "Bringing a Gun to a Knife Fight "class .

Useful knife training is out there. It just is not readily available in most traditional martial arts venues and fewer gun schools.

 

[Alamo]

There are places where you can carry a knife that you cannot carry a gun. Period. For those of us that travel outside the US (or travel there for work and that work does not include LE, MIL or armed security) then you will NOT be carrying a gun. In that case a knife beats the heck out of nothing at all. All you have are shooting skills? Well that kind of limits your ability to respond when there is no gun to be had... The whole world is not a "shall issue" state.

As to the tired old "not bringing a knife to a gunfight", it is just as dangerous (or more so ) to try to insert a gun into a knife fight when that knife fight started before you heard the opening bell ring. You really need some specific empty hand skills to deal with the knife that is already in play to keep from getting stabbed repeatedly FIRST and THEN access your gun (or knife or sap or blackjack or flame thrower or hand grenade or whatever....). Where do we learn that? In GOOD knife classes.

Now do most knife classes out there focus on "dueling"? Yes many of the more "traditional" martial arts schools focus on that. Just like most of the more "traditional " gun schools historically focused on shooting at 5 yards and farther and did not focus much at all on truly useful pressure tested touching distance solutions (and if you say "speed rock " then you get to put on the dunce cap and go sit in the corner).

If you look at what the Shivworks guys (Craig and Larry and Chris and Cecil) are doing that is not traditional dueling, it is accessing the knife under duress and under actual physical pressure at arms length or closer and using it to open up space, it is not predicated on knife on knife dueling. Craig's Edged Weapons Overview class spends a significant amount of time on fighting in the clinch, accessing your blade and using it to open up the clinch and get away and in using the blade against a disparity of force issue ( 2 vs 1 ) . Also Tom Sotis in his Accessing While Under Attack class focuses on initially reacting with empty hands and then accessing your tools. I taught the same stuff in the Zero To Five Feet class when I was still teaching for Suarez and I teach that same type empty hand vs knife material in my own "Bringing a Gun to a Knife Fight "class .

Useful knife training is out there. It just is not readily available in most traditional martial arts venues and fewer gun schools.

What he said. (Especially the dunce cap for speed rock. lol).

I know some places/people in Texas you could go see, but not Indiana, sorry.

One thing you can do, is find someone else who is interested, then start your own group of two. Go with your buddy to a decent course like Randy recommended. Hell, ask Randy if he's game. I have been to several of Tom Sotis's courses (he's a good guy), plus several other "names," but then that only opens your eyes and shows you how. You need to then try out and practice what you learned in the course. So set up a weekly practice schedule with your buddy, and work through what you were exposed to in the class. Tom Sotis I know not only teaches the knife stuff, but he gives you a learning/training model to use, a "how to train" model, that will be very useful in your home sessions. Then go back to one of his (or whoever's) courses and not only learn some more, but see how well you retained the stuff from the first course.

If possible, recruit more than one buddy. There are or were several groups like this in Texas, generally modeled on Tom Sotis's training paradigm, and we got a lot of training in. You don't have to keep spending $$ on the big names, you mostly need to practice, but you use the big names to learn knew stuff, get exposure to working against someone who doesn't know you...and find new training buddies.

 

[Jackson]

In addition to what Randy and Alamo said, a good general base for those more specific skills are general grappling skills.

If you go to grappling/wrestling/judo/jiu jitsu class and regularly focus on standing clinch and wrestling positions with plenty of attention paid to getting to advantageous angles or positions while controlling hands/wrists/arms... You will be in a much better place to apply the specific knife skills you learn in those courses.

You will also find yourself in a room full of like-minded people who are accustomed to training. These might well be the training partners that Alamo mentioned that you should look for.

Being really comfortable and practiced in the positions and with the broad concepts of generally fighting in the clinch will pay dividends when you get around to practicing the weapon specific techniques. At least it has helped me.

 

[Nightboard]

My knife training consisted of: accept the fact you are going to get stabbed and cut. Survive till help arrives.

 

[Sitcomdad83]

Martial blade concepts is pretty straight forward and doesn't focus on the martial artist type stuff. They have a decent distance learning program and the website does list a few indiana instructors.

 

[peterock]

Any updates on upcoming training opportunities?

 

[Amishman44]

I briefly studied some "knife fighting" with Jimmy Tacosa (escrima) when he was in Chicago. I had some experience in FMA prior to this time. I have studied knife techniques in American Kenpo. I have studied knife techniques in WWII Combatives. I hold black belts in various arts (Taekwondo, Shito-ryu Karate), and have various levels attained in Aikido and Kyokushinkai karate, and also briefly studied Japanese swordsmanship with Tetsuzan Kuroda, who is likely the finest practitioner of Japanese swordsmanship in existence. (If he is holding a "knife," especially of the long variety, you should definitely run.) In all, I devoted approximately 30 years of serious study to traditional and modern close, interpersonal, armed and unarmed conflict resolution. During and since then, I have devoted my time to understanding the use of a firearm in close quarters and how to integrate the firearm in realistic conflict. That study has lasted about 20 years. I also have worked as a police officer, a Secret Service Agent, and am currently a Federal Agent with another agency. I am currently a firearms instructor and also "assist" with Defensive Tactics. I guess you would say I am a beginner. I hope this answers your question.

I would list this experience as 'qualified' to give a valid opinion / recommendation / suggestion on how best to handle a 'knife' situation.
I'm with you in working to better understand the use of a firearm in close quarters...where 'big' matters!
Thank you for your service sir...

 

[Vanguard.45]

I would list this experience as 'qualified' to give a valid opinion / recommendation / suggestion on how best to handle a 'knife' situation.
I'm with you in working to better understand the use of a firearm in close quarters...where 'big' matters!
Thank you for your service sir...

Well, I am still a beginner, but feel like I can at least give them my $.02 worth. Just trying to help. Thank you for the kind words.

 

[warren5421]

Is there anyone that teaches 55+ how to use a knife when you are in a mugging type happening where the young man is using his hands to do the mugging. I know that getting to a knife is/maybe easier than pulling a gun. A bad cut can save your life without you taking a life. Cut a tendon, it will slow a bad guy down.

 

[Jackson]

Is there anyone that teaches 55+ how to use a knife when you are in a mugging type happening where the young man is using his hands to do the mugging. I know that getting to a knife is/maybe easier than pulling a gun. A bad cut can save your life without you taking a life. Cut a tendon, it will slow a bad guy down.

If it is going to be realistic and applicable, the training for someone 55+ should be largely similar to the training for someone who is 25. The stuff that works is the stuff that works.

The pace and intensity may need to be attenuated to accommodate the older student. The older student may need more reps or a flatter walk up the intensity curve, but ultimately you need to do the same stuff.

Weapons access inside the fight needs to be trained and can be difficult. Cutting a tendon may end the fight. It may go unnoticed and have no visible effect until after the violence is done.