Jeff Bezos claims child tax credit.

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    rooster

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    how did we end up in the debt/deficits/tax situation of 2021?

    Did the greatest generation reduce the debt and increase prosperity through sheer luck? Or was it a result of smart policy making? Have we ended up with the highest debt to GDP in history through bad luck or is it the result of poor economic policies like cutting taxes and corporate welfare?
     

    rooster

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    You need to study the history and learn the difference between correlation and causation...
    What part of history am I missing here? Correlation vs causation? Did the economic policies of higher taxes,stronger unions and buying American have nothing to do with the reduction of debt and post war prosperity?

    if those policies are not the cause then what is?
     

    rooster

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    notice the debt to gdp was on a steady downtrend until Reagan sold us trickle down economics and tax cuts?

    since then we have increased the debt to gdp by almost 100%. But I’m sure one has nothing to do with the other





     

    phylodog

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    Doesn't change facts.

    No one person should have to pay more than you do. No one person should be allowed to pay less. You only like your argument because you're the one who gets to keep more of their hard earned money.

    I'm not discussing corporate taxes, this thread is about an individual US citizen who you feel should have to pay millions more per year to enjoy the same benefits of citizenship that you do.
     

    jamil

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    I’m sure it had nothing to do with 90% tax rates on the rich. Which coincidentally happened at the same time as record growth and expansion.

    it’s almost like those with the most to lose are also the ones telling us that taxing the rich doesn’t work.

    The effective tax rate in the 50’s was 42%. It’s not that different from what the rich pay now. It’s certainly not enough to have accounted for the debt reduction post WWII.


    Also, you might look into the Laffer curve. Since you will certainly scour the internet to look for criticisms of that I’ll save you some trouble. The biggest problem with it is that it’s too reductive to represent all the factors and complexities of the effect of tax rates on spending behavior. Hut it’s also too simplistic to say that the relationship between tax rates and revenue is proportional. It’s not. Higher tax rates change behavior. Though the actual curve is probably not knowable, there is a sweet spot in the tax rates which maximizes revenue.

    The problem with “tax the rich” is that it’s a solution for people who think wealth is a zero sum game. That if rich people have more, it must be because they took it from the poor people. And that is nonsense. That’s not how wealth works. The Reagan economy made income inequality higher. That’s true. But it also reduced poverty. The Trump economy did the same thing, sans the lockdowns.

    Rich people got richer and poor people got richer. It’s just that the rich people were more efficient than the poor people because they’re better equipped to maximize earnings.

    What you’re talking about amounts to wealth envy. It doesn’t hurt you that they’re richer. You just think it does.
     

    jamil

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    Call it what you want but you cannot deny the greatest period of economic expansion also occurred during a time when corporate and personal taxes where at their very highest levels ever.

    that’s incompatible with modern republican ideas of cutting taxes to stimulate growth though. Republicans and conservatives now would have you believe that if you put in a 90% tax rate on the top 5% with no carve outs that the entire system would collapse. History clearly shows that’s not what happens.

    ********. This is facile leftspeak nonsense. There were other factors at play that created those periods of boom economies. Post WWII was one example. Tech boom of the 90s was another. Post WWII everyone was rebuilding; manufacturing was retooling for a peace economy. Incomes rose as soldiers went home and availed themselves if the GI bill. In the tech boom everyone had to get on the internet. Great advances in electronic communications as a result of the breakup of ma bell, helped drive the tech boom as well. Not even Jimmy Carter could have ****ed up those economies. It’s ridiculous and mockworthy to claim that those booms were helped by the tax increases. Rather those growth periods happened despite the oppressive tax rates.
     

    jamil

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    I hold no delusions of grandeur. I’m well aware that at best I’ve done a little better than my father and his father before him but I still put on work boots every day and a tool belt fairly regularly, I’ll never own a super yacht and I’m ok with that.

    I’m not of the owning class and even if I start a business another I will still most likely be in the working class.

    many are mislead about classes and think it’s got to do with income. Income has nothing to do with it. The only thing that matters is who owns the means of production and who is the worker.
    Workers owning the means of production? What’s stopping them now? What is stopping you and your coworkers from just starting your own business? Or, is it that you don’t have what it takes, and so you just want to take it away from those who do?

    Alright. So then you do that. How do you think that ends?
     

    wtburnette

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    Even if we went into higher taxes, all our out of control government would do is spend more on worthless programs. In the 50's it might have worked (along with numerous other factors) due to fiscally responsible spending. We don't have any such thing now.

    Oh and F unions. They are a relic of a bygone day. During their startup and heyday, they were necessary evils. They aren't necessary any more, but kept the evil part. Just look at all the heinous crap pushed by teachers unions.
     

    jamil

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    notice the debt to gdp was on a steady downtrend until Reagan sold us trickle down economics and tax cuts?

    since then we have increased the debt to gdp by almost 100%. But I’m sure one has nothing to do with the other





    The problem with debt was that we spent more than we took in. For all Reagan’s talk about fiscal responsibility, he sure loved him some deficit spending.
     

    jamil

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    how did we end up in the debt/deficits/tax situation of 2021?

    Did the greatest generation reduce the debt and increase prosperity through sheer luck? Or was it a result of smart policy making? Have we ended up with the highest debt to GDP in history through bad luck or is it the result of poor economic policies like cutting taxes and corporate welfare?
    Spending. It’s that simple. We don’t have a revenue problem. We have a spending problem.
     

    rooster

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    Doesn't change facts.

    No one person should have to pay more than you do. No one person should be allowed to pay less. You only like your argument because you're the one who gets to keep more of their hard earned money.

    I'm not discussing corporate taxes, this thread is about an individual US citizen who you feel should have to pay millions more per year to enjoy the same benefits of citizenship that you do.
    so citizenship should cost each man woman child and corporation (corporate personhood) the same amount of money?

    that’s about 12k for each. How many people in your household? Can you afford that? Can most?
     

    Route 45

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    From the article, which I doubt anyone here even read...

    So how did Bezos get the credit? Investment losses can help reduce taxes by offsetting income or gains. Specifically, Bezos’ wealth is tied to stock which doesn’t affect your tax bracket until shares are sold. Sold shares count towards taxable income for that year.

    Yeah. You don't pay taxes on unrealized gains. Pretty basic stuff here. I can have $25 million in stocks in my brokerage account. If I haven't sold them yet, I haven't made any actual income on them yet. Thus, no income tax.

    Derp.
     

    rooster

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    From the article, which I doubt anyone here even read...

    So how did Bezos get the credit? Investment losses can help reduce taxes by offsetting income or gains. Specifically, Bezos’ wealth is tied to stock which doesn’t affect your tax bracket until shares are sold. Sold shares count towards taxable income for that year.

    Yeah. You don't pay taxes on unrealized gains. Pretty basic stuff here. I can have $25 million in stocks in my brokerage account. If I haven't sold them yet, I haven't made any actual income on them yet. Thus, no income tax.

    Derp.
    But if that’s the case then how are people like bezos funding their extravagant lifestyles. I know the answer, curious if anyone else does.
     

    Route 45

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    What part of history am I missing here? Correlation vs causation? Did the economic policies of higher taxes,stronger unions and buying American have nothing to do with the reduction of debt and post war prosperity?

    if those policies are not the cause then what is?
    Being the last great economy standing after Europe is razed and Japan is double nuked probably helped quite a bit.
     

    jamil

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    how did we end up in the debt/deficits/tax situation of 2021?

    Did the greatest generation reduce the debt and increase prosperity through sheer luck? Or was it a result of smart policy making? Have we ended up with the highest debt to GDP in history through bad luck or is it the result of poor economic policies like cutting taxes and corporate welfare?
    Oh. It’s not obvious? We have the highest debt to gdp because we shut down our economy and congress kept spending. And, congress also wrote everyone big checks. And paid people not to work. How is it that this isn’t obvious to you. You still think we went into big debt because we weren’t taxing rich people at an effective rate of 42% instead of mid 30’s?
     

    Route 45

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    But if that’s the case then how are people like bezos funding their extravagant lifestyles. I know the answer, curious if anyone else does.
    Is he following the law? Yes? Then who cares?

    What's next? Outrage because nobody will pull him over for driving his Bentley 70 mph in a 70 mph zone?
     

    jamil

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    What part of history am I missing here? Correlation vs causation? Did the economic policies of higher taxes,stronger unions and buying American have nothing to do with the reduction of debt and post war prosperity?

    if those policies are not the cause then what is?
    I think what he’s saying is that you need to look at the thing as a whole instead of cherry-picking that which supports your side of it.
     
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