Israel on the spot justice

[BigRed]

You'll always get a +1 with me for Bible quotes.

Now my life is fulfilled.

What is your opinion on Romans 13?

 

[Libertarian01]

So I will agree that this is a good shoot, but not for the same reasons as most others. I believe it is only a good shoot because the guy attacked the police, not the initial victim.

And here is why...

"Why" is the question, aka mens rea. Why was the initial person attacked? Say that was a father attacking the rapist of his daughter. A fit of rage/revenge. Inappropriate? Of course, yes. Deserving of punishment? Yes, absolutely. However, in the scenario I have given the victim isn't blame free, they are an alleged rapist.

The problem with immediate justice is simply that it is NOT justice. It is something else.

I believe we all want to see justice done everywhere. I hope we can agree on that. However, all too often what we have seen or heard or been told is only part of the story. For justice to ever be achieved the whole story should be discovered. Only then, with proper context, can we have any hope that true justice will be achieved.

Some years ago a young girl was raped in an apartment complex here in Fort Wayne. She immediately went home and told her brother. She described who did it and what apartment they were in. The brother went there and killed the rapist. We're all good with that. No court time. No long, drawn out trial. No waste of taxpayers money incarcerating over the years. On the surface it looks like a reasonable conclusion.

Except that the girl got the apartment number wrong. The brother killed an innocent man minding his own business.

I'm all for "hang 'em high," just after a thorough investigation making absolutely certain you apply the right punishment to the appropriate crime. I do believe in justice, and justice ain't speedy. In this case, after attacking the other officers, I agree.

Regards and Merry Christmas,

Doug

 

[Mongo59]

The first 7 verses are a bitter pill to take but you have to remember that Nero was ruling in Rome when Paul wrote it...

 

[Magyars]

Now my life is fulfilled.

What is your opinion on Romans 13?

Honor to whom honor is due.
What part of Romans 13 are you referencing? Lots to take in there....

 

[ditcherman]

The first 7 verses are a bitter pill to take but you have to remember that Nero was ruling in Rome when Paul wrote it...

So then why do we even have the guns? Except for, you know, hunting.
Serious sincere question, please don’t read animosity/vitriol into this.
Like you said, bitter pill, and I hope His grace is sufficient. Trying to understand.

 

[buckwacker]

To properly apply Romans 13, one must remember WE are a nation of laws rather than men. Holding men to account for subverting the law would seem congruent with the passage.

 

[ditcherman]

To properly apply Romans 13, one must remember WE are a nation of laws rather than men. Holding men to account for subverting the law would seem congruent with the passage.

If literally read, and the belief held that God’s word trumps our nation of laws, it seems to me one must conclude that God set those people in place, and we are too obey their edict.

 

[Ark]

I'm definitely not in favor of summary field executions of wounded terrorists.

Ammunition is way too expensive nowadays to waste on dudes who are going to bleed out anyway.

 

[74 or more]

Hamas will give a pay check to marders !

 

[buckwacker]

If literally read, and the belief held that God’s word trumps our nation of laws, it seems to me one must conclude that God set those people in place, and we are too obey their edict.

Would the same have applied to Hitler, Stalin, and Mao? Does it mean people should turn in their neighbors as the government commanded?

 

[tackdriver]

So I will agree that this is a good shoot, but not for the same reasons as most others. I believe it is only a good shoot because the guy attacked the police, not the initial victim.

And here is why...

"Why" is the question, aka mens rea. Why was the initial person attacked? Say that was a father attacking the rapist of his daughter. A fit of rage/revenge. Inappropriate? Of course, yes. Deserving of punishment? Yes, absolutely. However, in the scenario I have given the victim isn't blame free, they are an alleged rapist.

The problem with immediate justice is simply that it is NOT justice. It is something else.

I believe we all want to see justice done everywhere. I hope we can agree on that. However, all too often what we have seen or heard or been told is only part of the story. For justice to ever be achieved the whole story should be discovered. Only then, with proper context, can we have any hope that true justice will be achieved.

Some years ago a young girl was raped in an apartment complex here in Fort Wayne. She immediately went home and told her brother. She described who did it and what apartment they were in. The brother went there and killed the rapist. We're all good with that. No court time. No long, drawn out trial. No waste of taxpayers money incarcerating over the years. On the surface it looks like a reasonable conclusion.

Except that the girl got the apartment number wrong. The brother killed an innocent man minding his own business.

I'm all for "hang 'em high," just after a thorough investigation making absolutely certain you apply the right punishment to the appropriate crime. I do believe in justice, and justice ain't speedy. In this case, after attacking the other officers, I agree.

Regards and Merry Christmas,

Doug

Thoughtful points. For me, the "Why" is often more important than the "what". Spanking a child - What's the difference between assaulting a child and shaping proper behavior? Did the parent react out of anger, or for the ultimate good of the child and others? "Why" is important, and with a proper "why" you generally get a better "what". (Understanding that we aren't perfect). In your example, I assume that the brother acted out of anger and ignorance, not from understanding and a thoughtful pursuit of justice.

As for the example, I would first point out that enraged brothers, fathers, moms, husbands, etc. aren't the only ones who get bad information or show up at the wrong door. There is an endless supply of examples for LE, military, etc. making similar mistakes; and making them for both good and bad "why's". Just because they are sanctioned to act, doesn't mean they get it right.

Maybe, because they're professionals, put pre-thought into the process, received training, etc. they get it right far more often. However, IF unsanctioned "vigilantes" were equally prepared, trained, thoughtful,etc. - responsible - they might also get better results. My problem with individuals taking action is that, in our current society, they are seldom really prepared for task.

 

[indyjohn]

Now my life is fulfilled.

What is your opinion on Romans 13?

There IS a lot to take in there.

At first it would seem that Paul is sanctioning violence in the name of God for the "right" reasons. But then he seems to do an about face and say use love first and always. The first 7 verses certainly ordained the Crusaders in their mission.

 

[ditcherman]

Would the same have applied to Hitler, Stalin, and Mao? Does it mean people should turn in their neighbors as the government commanded?

Well I certainly don’t think so, and my default setting is to ask for forgiveness not permission. So I’m perfectly happy to disobey the govt and do what I think is right. But I can’t read that literally and in good conscience disobey, something has to give.

ETA this is still just what I think, it has nothing to do with the literal understanding of the text, and I don’t see how your response addresses that, it just asks more questions.
Literal, obey authority. Disobey, and you disobey God.

 

[buckwacker]

Well I certainly don’t think so, and my default setting is to ask for forgiveness not permission. So I’m perfectly happy to disobey the govt and do what I think is right. But I can’t read that literally and in good conscience disobey, something has to give.

ETA this is still just what I think, it has nothing to do with the literal understanding of the text, and I don’t see how your response addresses that, it just asks more questions.
Literal, obey authority. Disobey, and you disobey God.

Read literally, it would seem to state that rulers are good and just, that their authority is protective of the public. How do we reconcile that with the historical existence if known evil, despotic rulers? They neither cared for their subjects or ruled justly. They were evil, motivated solely by their by selfish desires for wealth and power.

I think a distinction must be made between just and unjust rule. Otherwise half of the fisrt several verses make absolutely no sense.

 

[indyjohn]

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is true in the human species.

 

[Leadeye]

The why in the video I would imagine comes from the stabbing victim being dressed like a Hasidic Jew. High on the hate list for some in that part of the world.

 

[ancjr]

All authority comes from God. If there weren't usurpers, John the Baptist would have been the High Priest and Jesus would have been King. An ongoing battle that's not settled until the final faithful Jews are surrounded with no hope and they cry out of their souls for Jesus to return and save them.

 

[Shadow01]

Not a tear shed. What was the question?

 

[AtTheMurph]

I'm pretty sure if someone does this in the US, especially the attacking officers part, they're going to be ventilated here too.

ventilated??

 

[ditcherman]

ventilated??

Holes made rapidly about their person so that equilibrium of inner fluids and atmospheric pressure is reached, also resulting in the temperature of said attacker reaching equilibrium with the atmospheric conditions in the immediate area.