IS THERE VALUE IN COMPETITIVE SHOOTING?

BehindBlueI's

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You seem to have taken offense, but none is intended. I double-read your post, and what you're basically saying is it doesn't take being a "9" or "10" in marksmanship / gunhandling...and in fact, someone who's a 9.5 there but a "3" in the other departments, is probably not as well-prepared for the "real world" as someone who's a solid 6 or 7 in all categories.

No offense taken, and that part we agree on. Most of the rest of it seems like extrapolation on your part vs what I said, like who's likely to train/compete, etc or that a given example is the "only" example, etc.
 

teddy12b

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Is there value in competitive shooting? Absolutely.

#1 It's fun.
#2 I walk away from every match having learned many things about myself, my technique/skills, my equipment, and learn from all those around me.

Most of the talk so far has been comparing pistol competitions to defensive shooting, but look at how many people chat online about bugging out with bug out bags who've probably never walked a mile with their gear. I competed in the 2020 Mammoth Sniper Challenge and am signed up to do it again for the 2022. No two people will show up with the same gear loadout, and yet we're all trying to come up with an answer to the same question. I've shot at guardian matches as individual and as teams. I've seen equipment break, and people break. I've had days where I thought I was shooting like a rockstar and days where I thought I should just go home and sell all my guns and start golfing.
 

BehindBlueI's

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What habits does competitive shooting create that is detrimental to defensive shooting?

The cop out answer is "none that can't be overcome with exposure to force on force training, etc. but a more specific answer would require some context. Competitive shooting covers a lot of ground, after all. Olympic bull's eye isn't IDPA isn't CAS, etc. etc.
 

Trapper Jim

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Just a few could be,

The infamous double tap for one, especially with multiple targets.

Fluid Presentations that result in premature shots.

Carrying trick equipment that is not street strong. Such as dots, trigger jobs, unstable holsters, Fiber Optics or gas filled fragile sights etc.

Trying to access scenario based training when nothing seems to fit in your preplanned stage plan.

Breaking the 180 habit.

Trying to run or wrestle (holstered or otherwise) with a perp or bystander when you are used to open running and gunning on a set stage.

Performing a reload or jam manipulation with gun extended in front of your face rather than bringing it in to your workspace.

Just a few, perhaps we will hear more.
 

ECS686

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What habits does competitive shooting create that is detrimental to defensive shooting?
As mentioned with Trappers response. Competitive shooting heres a few Ill add 1 you get a 5 min walk through and have known stimulas that every target gets at least 2 rounds (or more) you don't on the street.

Competition splt times matter with the only penalty is a D hit or mis. Street shoot more than you should that last couple rounds could be used to make a case against you. (same thing is currently scrutinized LE shooting saying first 4 were good shots last 2 were not) LAPD SWATvstandards are .50 splits accuracy is great and they can decipher shoot or no shoot. .2 not so much the your in a case similar to above successful OODA loop argument or not)

3 Sometimes it makes People get too wrapped up about times. My agency actually got away from timers for a while because it became more about beating the time than keeping solid techniques.

Competition can be fun, it can help gun handling, its shooting. But its also not equal to training.
 

Twangbanger

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Competition is great at teaching you to flick your eyes to acquire and begin your index to the next target. But you do tend to have your gun up the whole time, and eventually point it at most everything in front of the 180 line at some point. I would say real world centers more on being aware of what is going on around you but not necessarily "indexing" to point a gun at it. A lot of things you may not want to point a gun at, and you may not even want your gun to be "up" and/or visible.

Also, more assessment of what you just shot also might be needed that just "I saw one or two good sight pictures," so really focus on assessment in your non-competition work.
 
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Twangbanger

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I think the "tactical" training proponents should have score sheets laying around at the rate of 20% of their training certificates. The competition guys, with a lot more "paper," should have maybe 5% training class certs vs their score sheets.

Too many of us fall for the stereotypes that others with more talk than experience express. :cool:

There is some truth to the saying that "your competition will get you killed." At the same time, a skilled comp shooter, shooting on the move, might just beat a drawn gun?

I've seen a fair amount of crap out of both sides. Poor to borderline dangerous gun handling in training classes, with some trainers flirting with it as a sales tactic. "Big boy rules." :n00b: The other end is the very large percentage of competition guys who, after the match, don't gun up for the trip home. :rolleyes:
I always say, "Government Buildings, Gun Shows, and Matches - 3 places where guns are "illegal"." It's embarrassing the orgs cannot / will not trust people. Surely to geezus there has to be some way to eventually get all the shooting comp orgs to do away with this stupid "gun in the parking lot" rule ********. Is it really all about insurance? I don't think there are people staring in cars at matches but you never know :wrongdoor:
 

bwframe

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I always say, "Government Buildings, Gun Shows, and Matches - 3 places where guns are "illegal"." It's embarrassing the orgs cannot / will not trust people. Surely to geezus there has to be some way to eventually get all the shooting comp orgs to do away with this stupid "gun in the parking lot" rule ********. Is it really all about insurance? I don't think there are people staring in cars at matches but you never know :wrongdoor:

Concealed means concealed.

Kind of like speed limits. They are for the folks who can't drive.

;)
 

bwframe

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This Navy Seal must have been watching this thread? He put out this video today. :)

He makes some valid points. I do wonder how many score sheets he has to to his record though?
Not sure he completely grasps the game vs the tactical? He does reference "when he shoots competition." :dunno:

 

Kneedeep87

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Imo..Competition shooting seems good for shooting and becoming one with the gun. It lacks everything else you would need in a real gun fight. I believe the order of importance is..mindset, tactics, skill, gear. I think comp only gets you part of the skill portion which is much less important than mindset and tactics. Some gear may crossover also. Still seems like the most fun way to get some skill though. They may be evolving to get more skill than I'm giving them credit for also..ie laying and shooting. Most comp shooters also scar training such as hugging closer to the barricade when peak shooting. When no one's shooting, in comp, you generally just step into the opening and fire. If your mindful on getting that training over winning you would get a better skill level from that experience. I think a lot of the comp shooters are doing the real world training and just enjoy the comp.
 

Leo

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I am in no way an expert. About 90% of the time I have felt I could easily be in danger, is in poor light. I feel any practice on low light condition is good . Sights are wonderful if you can see them. For a person that depends on eyeglasses, that introduces another potential risk. I try to practice low light, no light, no prescription eyeglasses. Point shooting is a whole different ball game. I have trouble switching pistols and having a reliable point shoot performance. Because of this, I carry the same handgun 90% of the time.

Sometimes on a bright day, I put black tape on my sights and test my skills that way.
 

Trevelayan

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I do comps to help my weapon handling skills and test my gear. Beyond that it's good for spatial awareness and practicing shooting while under stress. It's not force-on-force training but that's not really why I do it. It's fun and it gets my fat @!$ moving. I don't really have a place where I can shoot and move so they provide that experience as well.
 

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