Is RR dead? (dying?)

[MCgrease08]

RR's safety procedures at R125 events are modeled after Appleseed's and then taken a step further to include NRA procedures as well. There's MORE safety at RR events than Appleseed.

This has certainly been my experience.

I'm probably approaching double digits in terms of RR events I've attended and I've never seen anything unsafe that wasn't called out and corrected immediately. If anything, I'd say the safety procedures can sometimes feel a bit like overkill compared to what I'm comfortable with at private ranges (i.e. hot range, keep the muzzle pointing in a safe direction, fingers off triggers until ready to fire.)

 

[Gaffer]

Hot tip: RR's safety procedures at R125 events are modeled after Appleseed's and then taken a step further to include NRA procedures as well. There's MORE safety at RR events than Appleseed.

Hey Slim! Hope all is good in your world..

My experience also, and I totally agree with MCgrease08.

Between my wife and I we have probably been to 10 plus classes and I have always felt that safety was always top notch.

If someone wants some really good training, at a very, very fair price, in a safe and professional setting you can't do any better than RR.

Ron

 

[TJ Kackowski]

Thanks for asking. It's interesting that you are the first to ever ask, after recounting the online discussions with your "instructors" a handful of times over the years.

I'm not interested in going back there. You can search INGO around the early years of RR, if you are that interested.

Long story short is that representatives of your organization were rude and arrogant in their disregard for standard firearms safety handling.

Its been some years back. I can only guess that the culprits in your organization have gone by the wayside and or learned better?


.

Soooo ... I tried using the advanced INGO search function with your user name and key words "Revere's Riders" ... nothing but this thread pops up. When I search on your username only, the farthest back the threads go is 2019 ... that's well afer RR started.

If you'd help me narrow this down ... maybe even link the specific threads ... I'd be glad to take a look at what's transpired.

However, if you don't care to take the effort, then why should I? It almost seems that you're holding a grudge and don't want it resolved so that you can continue to hold a grudge. Please send me more specific information in a conversation, and we'll see where that takes us.

 

[308jake]

It was probably me.

I'm on the internetz all the time saying things like, "No, ALL guns are not ALWAYS loaded ALL the time because I just checked this one. Additionally, there's a chamber flag in there. My guy on the right side checked it too. So did the dude on the left. We know this gun is now unloaded so that antiquated, stupid, physics-defying 'rule' of ALL guns being loaded ALL the time is dumb and it's only giving fuel to the anti-gunners to pretend like guns are somehow more dangerous than they actually are."

I will argue with anyone on the internetz about anything. Sometimes I'll even argue a position I don't fully endorse just because it's fun to get a rise out of close-minded people. When folks tell me there's ONE WAY to do the thing and the ONLY WAY is to do it their way I just laugh and laugh. And then I post more.

Because that's the internetz. That's where that stuff happens.

When I'm on your range (since you described yourself as a "range nazi") I have to follow your rules. I'm not arguing on the internetz, I'm participating in your system. Much in the same way, Revere's Riders has a system of safety they use to keep participants safe and costs low.

If you and yours are missing out on RR events because of things people said on the internetz, I personally apologize. I hope you'll take the open-minded approach of seeing for yourself how safe their events truly are.

Hot tip: RR's safety procedures at R125 events are modeled after Appleseed's and then taken a step further to include NRA procedures as well. There's MORE safety at RR events than Appleseed.

He never went to an event. He just likes 4 rules vs 3….what’s the old saying about wrestling with pigs?

 

[bwframe]

Best of luck to RR.

 

[Ruger_Ronin]

Having been to many events hosted by RR, and now volunteering on occasion, I have never had a negative experience with the organization or any of it's staff. The individuals who dedicate their time and efforts to the pursuit of marksmanship for all walks of life is second to none.

@bwframe I urge you to reconsider and attend a class. People learn and grow as Instructors just as students do.

 

[bwframe]

... @bwframe I urge you to reconsider and attend a class. People learn and grow as Instructors just as students do.

Thanks for the invite. Kind of you.


.

 

[gregkl]

He never went to an event. He just likes 4 rules vs 3….what’s the old saying about wrestling with pigs?

Hey Jake! Hope you are well! Been awhile!

 

[308jake]

Hey Jake! Hope you are well! Been awhile!

Doing well buddy. We need to shoot sometime soon for sure

 

[Gabriel]

Weird.
In my case Appleseed=RR as far as instructors and experiences go. Ive taken both and they were almost the exact same instructors. The only thing different was the targets.

This is my experience also. The classes are almost identical (at least the RR 125 and a standard Appleseed) other than the targets. I actually prefer the Appleseed targets as there is one more NPOA shift and the targets are more difficult due to the full value scoring area being roughly 2/3rds the size of the RR targets. For newer shooters, though, I think the RR targets likely instill a lot more confidence... and that's what Appleseed and RR 125 are really about.

 

[Cameramonkey]

This is my experience also. The classes are almost identical (at least the RR 125 and a standard Appleseed) other than the targets. I actually prefer the Appleseed targets as there is one more NPOA shift and the targets are more difficult due to the full value scoring area being roughly 2/3rds the size of the RR targets. For newer shooters, though, I think the RR targets likely instill a lot more confidence... and that's what Appleseed and RR 125 are really about.

I forget which instructor told me the story, It may have been TJ, I dont recall.

When the program* was brought to the Boy Scouts as a possible activity, RR was told that it was a no-go because BSA does not feel it is appropriate for scouts to be shooting at man-shaped targets. They are fine with bullseyes. But not silhouettes. So RR changed them to a similar bell shape. Same basic target, but instead of shooting a man, you are "ringing a bell". Problem solved.

*I dont recall if it was AS that was shot down and RR used the rejection knowledge in it's target selection, or if it was RR that changed.

 

[Gabriel]

What would you like to see?
What's your favorite RR offering?

A 2 day Rifle 223.
Rifle 125.

Strangely, because of my job I learned more at the Rifle 125 than the 223. Most of my training at work is basically a 223 class, but we never do positional shooting slung up like in the 125 class.

 

[Gabriel]

I forget which instructor told me the story, It may have been TJ, I dont recall.

When the program was brought to the Boy Scouts as a possible activity, RR was told that it was a no-go because BSA does not feel it is appropriate for scouts to be shooting at man-shaped targets. They are fine with bullseyes. But not silhouettes. So RR changed them to a similar bell shape. Same basic target, but instead of shooting a man, you are "ringing a bell". Problem solved.

That makes sense. There is one other difference in the targets (other than the extra NPOA shift in the third stage) and that is the 5 point scoring area is 1/2 or 2/3rds the size of the RR target (which is full value no matter where you hit it).



This shows the third stage where there is one less NPOA shift (since I bothered to get the targets out of the closet)...

 

[TheJoker]

That makes sense. There is one other difference in the targets (other than the extra NPOA shift in the third stage) and that is the 5 point scoring area is 1/2 or 2/3rds the size of the RR target (which is full value no matter where you hit it).

View attachment 207557

This shows the third stage where there is one less NPOA shift (since I bothered to get the targets out of the closet)...

View attachment 207558

Actually, the values in the RR bell targets represent how many rounds to fire at each target. Revere's Riders simplified the scoring to "Hits Count". All hits count as one point except for the bottom stage which use the formula 2(hits count).

And by the way, there's been an annual "Scouts Only" event every year as far back as I can remember. The Scout events have been very popular and successful.

 

[TheJoker]

He never went to an event. He just likes 4 rules vs 3….what’s the old saying about wrestling with pigs?

If THAT'S his only beef, I completely agree, Cooper's 4 rules and the NRA's 3 drools! But, I don't see how using the 3 compromises the safety of an event. And as long as safety isn't compromised, I'm happy to follow the RR SOP.

 

[Gabriel]

He never went to an event. He just likes 4 rules vs 3….what’s the old saying about wrestling with pigs?

Wait, what?

 

[MohawkSlim]

Semi-related to where this topic has headed in terms of scoring and target sizes, NPOA shifts, etc., is the idea that Revere's Riders is a "field marksmanship" program as opposed to a competitive shooting training organization.

Appleseed is a "field marksmanship" program as well but it was designed and administered by competitive shooters: folks who are accustomed to attempting precise shots in attempts to hit closer to the center ring on a bullseye. The idea behind both programs is to take a rack grade rifle, surplus ball ammo, and make hits on a man-sized target out to 500 yards.

In order to do that safely and effectively it almost always means training people in 3-position shooting ala CMP National Matches, NRA High Power, Rimfire Sporter, etc. But what that often leads to is a directional shift from defensive or military style shooting to a more sporty, competition style of shooting. In fact, Appleseed as a whole was reluctant to engage in pistol training until recently because they wanted to distance themselves from defensive training. They were (are?) a strictly marksmanship organization.

The Revere's Riders angle on that systemic difference of approach caused an internal rift fairly early on and the folks who wanted to continue with "shooting for score" ended up leaving the organization. What it led to was a program with offerings in addition to 3-position rifle training (ala Appleseed) such as pistol and carbine courses with the chance to shoot pop-ups on the military ranges at Camp Atterbury. Simply put, Revere's Riders starts with the basics but hopes you'll continue through shooting off a hillside at unknown distances or drawing your pistol from your holster and engaging a threat at 3 yards.

Because of that, the targets are different.

Yes, there was some Scouts input. Yes, there was some, "you can copy but change it up a little." But the biggest difference is RR trains marksmen to make their hits count, not worry about the score of each round. It is a fundamental difference in mindset that's reflected on the targets.

 

[gregkl]

Semi-related to where this topic has headed in terms of scoring and target sizes, NPOA shifts, etc., is the idea that Revere's Riders is a "field marksmanship" program as opposed to a competitive shooting training organization.

Appleseed is a "field marksmanship" program as well but it was designed and administered by competitive shooters: folks who are accustomed to attempting precise shots in attempts to hit closer to the center ring on a bullseye. The idea behind both programs is to take a rack grade rifle, surplus ball ammo, and make hits on a man-sized target out to 500 yards.

In order to do that safely and effectively it almost always means training people in 3-position shooting ala CMP National Matches, NRA High Power, Rimfire Sporter, etc. But what that often leads to is a directional shift from defensive or military style shooting to a more sporty, competition style of shooting. In fact, Appleseed as a whole was reluctant to engage in pistol training until recently because they wanted to distance themselves from defensive training. They were (are?) a strictly marksmanship organization.

The Revere's Riders angle on that systemic difference of approach caused an internal rift fairly early on and the folks who wanted to continue with "shooting for score" ended up leaving the organization. What it led to was a program with offerings in addition to 3-position rifle training (ala Appleseed) such as pistol and carbine courses with the chance to shoot pop-ups on the military ranges at Camp Atterbury. Simply put, Revere's Riders starts with the basics but hopes you'll continue through shooting off a hillside at unknown distances or drawing your pistol from your holster and engaging a threat at 3 yards.

Because of that, the targets are different.

Yes, there was some Scouts input. Yes, there was some, "you can copy but change it up a little." But the biggest difference is RR trains marksmen to make their hits count, not worry about the score of each round. It is a fundamental difference in mindset that's reflected on the targets.

This reflects in my shooting, probably due to taking several RR classes. Sure, I'd like to be able to shoot tight groups with my pistol fast, but I am okay with groups that may be a little open but still effective.

Naturally with a rifle, my groups are much tighter but I am still okay with, as they say, "minute of man" groups.

I'm way past one hole groups at 500 yards. That ship has done sailed for me.

 

[snowdrifter]

... Mil-Surp Rifles class...
...Indiana version Battle Road Biathlon...

What would you like to see?

Yes please to both of these. And how about another rifle 262 at Atterbury?

Though I'll agree with others comments; the price of fuel and ammunition (really the economy in general) has really put a damper on things.

 

[Ruger_Ronin]

I've always had a more "effective hits" standard as opposed to chasing keyholes. Practical accuracy to effectively harvest game sums up my childhood journey as a marksman.

The bells are perfect for me. A good standard for effective vital hits without micro management. The historical value and relevant meaning are more important to me than the target itself. The bell, the shingle, etc. I do love the attached stories. Gives the shooter perspective on the goal at hand. And something to think about besides a score count.