INGO Drummer/Percussionist Thread

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  • cbhausen

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    I did a search and found this 10-year-old thread: https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/ingo-drummers.183667/

    I’m starting this one to give INGO drummers and percussionists a place to hang out and tell lies.

    I’m thinking of picking up a set of sticks and learning some basic drumming along with my kids (my 6-year-old son has attention issues and I think this may help him as he loves to play drummer).

    Should we start out on practice pads learning rudiments or basic beats first? I’ve been air drumming all my life (LOL) and doing the basic rock beat (“Billie Jean”) on a few books set up like a snare and hi-hat was enough to suck me in, quite fun…

    I’d like to get some Roland V-Druns someday if the family takes to it.
     

    KokomoDave

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    I'm not a drummer but there are some very good tutorials on YouTube. I got basic beats from a long haired girl named Sina who shows you the 3 basic items to get started. My bil who does drum likes her tutorials and encouraged me to p!ss off his sister by me taking it up. My arthritis is getting worse in my hands for guitar except Hawaiian slide but I do okay with sticks and my tremor helps me keep time. Odd, huh?
     

    Twangbanger

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    Billie Jean rocks! The good ole AC/DC beat. The most infectious groove in music. Boom...bap. And that's how I started: with books and pieces of paper arranged around a practice pad. My first lesson my teacher had me reading an "AC/DC" beat off notation and playing along to it, and when I heard that on "real" drums, I was hooked that very first night.

    I started taking from a pro instructor 3 years ago. It is definitely interesting learning music "from the back" and gives you a different view of playing in a band. It depends what yours and your son's interests are, but if you are interested in drumset (assuming), then I'd just go right into that. Yes, definitely get a practice pad, and your teacher will have you doing some rudiment exercises, but not a tremendous amount and don't totally geek out on it. Unless your kid is going to be in marching band, it's enough just to do a little pad work a few times a week. The basic four-way independence of your legs and hands on a full set is a much bigger part of being a good drummer than having "awesome hands."

    I started on a cheap electric rig, but wore out the kick pad sensor in 6 months and moved to acoustic. It's an ok way to start, for fun, but it does have limitations. It's awesome to have that "volume" knob. A basic e-kit will give you 6 months or so to find out if it's for you, and it's easy to play along with stuff on headphones (many drum modules have a lot of play along tracks built in). Roland V-drums are awesome, so if you have the cash, go for it. But I find anything less on electric drums to be disappointing, for me. The precise crack and snap of acoustic drums, and the feedback it gives you, is just unbeatable.

    Basic four-way beats is the best way to start. Try to get playing along with actual music as soon as possible. Your instructor will no doubt want you to learn to read notation, and do some pad work, and some "exercises." But the real fun is when you learn to count-off into a song, and stay with it all the way through, with transitions from verse to chorus, fills, changeup grooves, and all that. I was surprised how hard this was for me, given that I've played guitar/bass and horns for many years. With those other instruments, you don't have to play so "continuously." You spend a lot of time standing around waiting for your turn to play. The drummer's job never quits. You drive the song. They have a saying: "The drummer is the leader of every band - regardless whose name is on the marquee." It is really true.

    This will be great for your son, if he has attention issues. Keeping absolute focus, for 3~5 minutes of a song, using all four limbs and playing continuously, doesn't sound like much to people, until you try to do it. It is also incredible for coordination. I have heard of people using drums as training for stroke patients, and it's a genius idea. Learning to build up a groove, adding/subtracting one piece at a time. One of the best feelings there is, is just "zoning out" on a drum groove, repetitively, which is how you learn, getting in that zenlike state, then you eventually find yourself making little subconscious changes and shaping it up and making it sound better. Great stuff!

    Kit types. Cheap electronic kits, of the type people start on, have two limitations. 1) they are not touch-sensitive, and 2) the sensors wear out. They give the same dynamic of sound, no matter how hard you hit it. This is a problem, because drumming is all about dynamics. Your brain is wired to want to hit equally hard with both hands. But to sound "good," you need to learn to play soft with one hand, while playing loud with the other. It's so important to good drumming, and cheap electronic kits don't allow you to develop it. E-kits which are durable, and give different volume levels depending how hard you hit, are the most expensive type of kit. (Again, Roland V-drums is the gold standard here).

    I tried mesh heads on an acoustic shell kit, but it was too mushy, and does not give crisp or precise feel. I didn't really start to progress, until I got rid of the electronic and mesh kits, and committed to setting up a real, loud acoustic kit in the garage. They are crisp and give you better feedback on what you're doing. You learn to softly grace-note the snare while whacking other stuff hard, or to alternate accented and unaccented beats on the hi hat. They are freaking loud! But there is really no substitute. It's just a life-adjustment you have to make. Set up a snare, bass drum, and hi hat in a garage where you won't bother people, and plan your practice time to be considerate. Plus you need a good seat to sit on. That's it to start. You can add a crash ride later, then maybe one or two toms in a year or so.

    Buy used. DO NOT BUY A BRAND NEW DRUMSET! At least to start. Check Craigslist frequently. (If you want electric, you'll see a lightly used Roland V/D kit at half price almost once a month). Find a used acoustic kit for a couple hundred bucks. They are like boats. Everybody has one taking up room, that they need to get rid of. There is not a huge difference in sound at this level. Drum heads are relatively cheap, and putting new heads of the right type on your drums, combined wtih learning to tune them, will give you more difference in sound than a $200 vs. $1,000 kit. Get a good seat to sit on. Drumming utilizes "core stability," and a wobbly seat will limit your skill (grooves where you have both feet "up" off the pedals at the same time at some repetitive point in a groove become incredibly hard on a wobbly seat, because the seat is your only connection to the ground when both feet are "up"). Do not spend too much on cymbals to start, that comes later. You want a cheap, intact, solid kit with a good seat, and good pedals (bass and hi hat stand). DW pedals are the "buy once / cry once" choice, and you will never regret having bought them. Get a "Real Feel" practice pad and you are set (rubber ones are too "bouncy" and don't mimic the rebound of an actual drum).

    To sum up, I highly recommend it. If you're new to music, it's relaxing, and no better way to learn song structure, memorization, timing, and how to really listen. If you've played other instruments, it's a new physical challenge, and a whole new approach to music and learning how to construct songs. I was never the type of person who took the drummer for granted, but now I have a whole new appreciation.

    Playing along to actual songs will be your quickest path to enjoyment and improvement. Get after it and let us know how you're doing!

    If you're interested in lessons, PM me. I have a great teacher. And some impressions about different places and instructors, based on having been at this a small while.
     
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    cbhausen

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    Man, that’s a great post, @Twangbanger ! Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed and thoughtful reply. My twins (son and daughter) are 6 and I bought them each a pair of kid size sticks and a pair of Vic Firth 5A for me. I’m wondering if I shouldn’t start them out on full-size sticks instead. I haven’t given them to them yet but I’m sure it will be fun jamming with them and learning together.

    I went to IRC music and played around on a set of Alesis mesh drums and they were pretty cool but there was a big difference between the cheaper set and the more expensive one in terms of dynamics, multiple zones on the snare, pedals, etc. I’m sure the Rolands are much better because you usually get what you pay for unless someone is out to rip you off. maybe someday…

    I’m guessing I’d probably have to go all the way up to Fort Wayne (Sweetwater) to see and hear a set of Roland V-Drums in person and I don’t want to look like a dork poking around on them there. Sweetwater can be intimidating if you’re not a professional musician, not because of the staff which are really cool but because of all the other customers in there.

    The hard surface practice pads I’m seeing (like the Vic Firth Heavy Hitter) look like they are for marching drummers and a lot of companies use “real feel” in the name but those are rubber pads. Do you have a specific recommendation for a practice pad? And what do you think about six-year-old kids using full length sticks versus scaled down sticks?
     

    jbombelli

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    I've been a drummer for 40 years now. I started out in pipe bands on snare. In my 20s I switched to kit and played in some garage bands, played a lot of gigs, and about 15 years ago I switched back to pipe bands. 4 years ago I left the band I was in, and haven't played in a while now. But in 2 weeks I'm heading up to Chicago, as a couple friends of mine I used to play with are snare drummers for the Greater Midwest Pipe Band, and invited me up there to the Scottish Festival to hear them and talk about joining. I probably will.

    I mentioned all that to give a little background before I say "Rudiments are important. Never skip them." They are the foundation of everything you'll ever play. The stronger the rudiments, the stronger the foundation. And practice with a metronome. Seriously. Practice with a metronome.

    As far as full size vs kids' sticks, I'd go with full size so they get used to them off the bat, and don't have to adapt to larger sticks later. YMMV on that though. I use a hard pad that comes as close to the feel of my snare as I can to eliminate as much as possible "pad hands.". But if I was playing kit still I'd probably use something softer. But the only thing a pad is for is not bothering all your neighbors. If not for neighbors I wouldn't use one at all. Lol
     

    cbhausen

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    @jbombelli I acknowledged your original thread from 10 years ago but wasn’t sure if I should start a new one. Thanks for your input. I’m not sure how much time I will be able to devote to this new hobby, it will probably depend on how interested my kids become in it.

    In my case acoustic drums are simply out of the question due to space and noise limitations, at least for a few years And I don’t want to wait since our twins are now 6 and I don’t want them to miss out on their best learning years. So it’s makeshift objects and pads for now and maybe a quality set of e-drums if their aptitude warrants the investment (or the if daddy is having enough fun to buy them anyway).
     

    Twangbanger

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    Don't sweat the sticks. They're 10 or 11 bucks a pair. Get a (small) selection of different diameters / lengths / tapers, let the kids hammer it out, then once they gravitate to something, encourage them to stay with that. I suspect they'll like something lighter right now, because hand strength takes time to develop, and lighter sticks have more rebound for the beginner. But it's not super critical. Their preferences will change as they get bigger.

    I like the Evans Real Feel brand of pad. It's a foam rubber, where most others are solid "rubber-rubber," and too bouncy to simulate a real drum. The mesh heads on many cheaper e-kits have the same problem. They bounce a lot, but a student could get discouraged because they can't execute that same bounce when they move to a real drum. They need at least some time hitting on something "solid." As JB states, some rudiment base should be developed, and it's very challenging to execute them properly on any kind of bouncy mesh head. The rebound is totally different. That's why the higher-end e-kits have more "solid" feeling heads.

    I think your best route would be to let the kids hit miscellaneous objects for fun, until you can find somebody wanting to unload a Roland V/D kit for a fire sale price on Craigslist. It may take a month or two, but it will be worth the wait. You would be surprised how many people take that plunge, only to sell it a year later. There's a TD-10 V-drums kit in Anderson for $750 right now, for example, if you search "drums" in the musical instrument section of Craigslist. They are $1,000 new, and honestly a new one would probably be worth it. It's hard to get into any kind of decent drumset for much less than than, by the time you cobble together all the stands, pedals, hardware, etc. You can find people unloading entire sets for 400 sometimes, cymbals, stands, and everything, but again those are mostly acoustic kits which you said are out of the question.

    As JB said, aside from dynamics, the metronome is what separates a drummer from an untimed hacker. And playing along with songs is an automatic metronome.
     
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    cbhausen

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    Twangbanger

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    @Twangbanger The funny thing is I can more easily get a new set of Roland V-Drums with all the no-interest financing options available through Amazon or PayPal thanks have to fork over all at once, even on a half-off-retail used set. I could swing something like this pretty easily and the heads are tunable:


    Or this set:

    I'm certainly not going to talk you out of this. Honestly, I'd be a little jealous.

    Next point: you said you had twins? I'm sensing a problem here, which I'm sure you've probably already grasped... :cool:.
     

    cbhausen

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    I'm certainly not going to talk you out of this. Honestly, I'd be a little jealous.

    Next point: you said you had twins? I'm sensing a problem here, which I'm sure you've probably already grasped... :cool:.
    Yeah, lol. Taking turns isn’t easy when you’re 6 and have to share a cool new toy. Things could be interesting until the newness wears off or one or both decide drums are not for them. Then I get to keep it for myself :joke:
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    I'm no drummer, but I admire those that can do it well! I can hold my own on a pair of bongos, or on the steering wheel at a light :):, but when I've had the opportunity to sit behind a full kit, suddenly all my rhythm and motor skills just go right out the window and I freeze up. :):
     

    Twangbanger

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    Yeah, lol. Taking turns isn’t easy when you’re 6 and have to share a cool new toy. Things could be interesting until the newness wears off or one or both decide drums are not for them. Then I get to keep it for myself :joke:
    "Um, Dad...we were thinking about it, and we realized we can't both play drums at the same time...so we were thinking we could get a guitar..."
     

    rob63

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    I also love the drums and all of this, I wish you well. That said, my parents were nice enough to fund drum lessons for me as a kid, only to learn that I have absolutely no sense of rhythm whatsoever! No amount of practice could produce a simple drum roll.

    My life story seems to be one of sucking at the things I love and hating the things I'm good at. :wallbash:
     

    littletommy

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    I had a drum kit years ago, but lost it in a divorce. I’ve been using the garage band virtual drummer for recording, but I really want a real kit again. I’m leaning towards electronic drums to keep the noise level down, but then again, if I get another good year end bonus this year, I’m thinking I might spring for the Ludwig John bonham kit I’ve always dreamed of owning.
     

    cbhausen

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    I ended up getting the Roland TD-1K through Sweetwater. This thing is very basic but an absolute blast to play on. Simple single-zone pads (no rimshot or sidestick) but the cymbals are surprisingly good with edge and bow sounds (and a bell when you hit the ride hard). No fancy mixing or recording (or Bluetooth) but the simple pedals are good enough to splash and feather the hi-hat and all of the pads and cymbals have a nice dynamic range to them so you can play soft or loud.

    I picked up basic playing right away and can play most simple grooves by ear. Jamming along with classic rock, pop and country songs a little bit after the family goes upstairs for bed. Having an Alexa Studio speaker nearby makes it easy to find something to play along with.

    I’m doing basic cymbal work and simplified fills at this stage, just trying to keep it crisp and in good time hoping to fancy things up as I get better. If I don’t know how a fill goes I usually wait until I hear it and then play what I can of it at the beginning of the next measure, trying to stay in time. It’s funny how satisfying it is to play even the simplest stuff when you really nail it and it sounds crisp and pure.

    My daughter doesn’t have much use for drums at this point, just banging around on them every once in a while. My son is a different story. He started out that way, really beating the crap out of everything but in the last couple of days something has clicked with him and he’s starting to get on the beat and keep better time. It’s really fun to play along with him, letting him play the snare and hi-hat while I play symbols and kick drum. he’s having a really good time learning and we’re having a good time learning together.

    I’ve been playing while stepping on the high hat the whole time so now that I’m getting two hands and 1 foot in on the action I need to get that other foot going. I’m afraid if I don’t take some lessons soon I will get stuck at this point, playing along with stuff instead of learning to keep my own time, especially during and after fills. And at the rate things are going my kid will be better than me in a couple weeks and he will never look back LOL.

     

    littletommy

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    Forgot about this thread! I just got an Alesis Surge E kit from sweetwater! I’ve had it for a little over a week, and absolutely love it. This one has dual zone pads, so I can use the rims for other drum sounds. I have been able to screw around with it and get really close to some zeppelin, floyd, and zztop sounds. I still haven’t figured out how to connect to garage band drums yet, but there are a ton of YouTube videos explaining how to do it, and that opens up a lot of other kits and sounds.
    4824720D-F2B8-48D2-A081-84A683975065.jpeg
     
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