Hydra Matic M16?

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  • gunselman

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    Dec 18, 2008
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    I once saw a M16 made by Hydra-Matic. From my research i have concluded that the GM Hydra-Matic division made M16s in the late 60s early 70s. Are there any of these in the NFA registry as transferable MGs? Any info on this particular model of M16 would help.

    I posted over on ar15.com about this but thought maybe some INGO`ers may have some knowledge on this.
     

    mjrducky

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    I can tell you about a month ago in my searches for an M16 a seller offered to sell me his Hydra-Matic. I passed on it but it looked decent from the photos that were emailed to me. I could look up the seller if your interested in seeing if its still available.
     

    VUPDblue

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    Hydra Matics are very rare. IIRC, most if not all of them were US property guns and the ones of those that are in the registry and NOT re-welds are very, very few.

    If I saw a Hydra Matic for sale, my first question would be if it were a re-weld.
     

    Clay

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    Hydra Matics are very rare. IIRC, most if not all of them were US property guns and the ones of those that are in the registry and NOT re-welds are very, very few.

    If I saw a Hydra Matic for sale, my first question would be if it were a re-weld.

    what is a re-weld?
     

    VUPDblue

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    I can't say for 100% certainty that there are any Hydra originals in the registry. I have been told by someone who I respect that there is at least one, though I have not seen it for myself. There are a few US Property M16's in the registry, but the steps that were taken to get them there attest to their rarity. I have seen a USP Colt before, but it was the only one I have ever seen.
     

    VUPDblue

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    what is a re-weld?

    Back in "the day" .gov took torches to surplus M16 receivers and filled 55gal. drums with them and sold them off as scrap. Some people like John Stemple and John Norrell bought the scrap and welded some of them back together. They were usually cut through the magwell and since humans did it, the cuts weren't the same every time. Some were more forward and some were more to the rear. You could take a front portion with a bit extra "meat" and a rear portion with some extra "meat" cut the weld off so that it was back to the measured spec. and weld them together, making a complete receiver. Ahhhh, the good ol' days.
     

    in812

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    why did they go to all the time and trouble to reweld them why not just reg a new receiver ? I assume this was done pre 86 ? if post wouldnt that make the post samples ? or can you still take 2 old pre 86 demiled rec and weld them to make a gun ?
     

    CountryBoy19

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    why did they go to all the time and trouble to reweld them why not just reg a new receiver ? I assume this was done pre 86 ? if post wouldnt that make the post samples ? or can you still take 2 old pre 86 demiled rec and weld them to make a gun ?
    because it was cheaper to re-weld an existing receiver. That was back before the days that CNC machines were affordable for smaller shops, so all the machining on a new receiver had to be done manually, and it was expensive to do. So it was cheaper to buy a barrel of "scrap aluminum" and re-weld them.

    Yes it was pre-86, I don't believe you can take a pre-86 demilled receiver and make an MG today because it isn't on the registry. It would've had to have been registered prior to 86.

    ETA, I agree that most, if not all Hydra-matics on the registry are re-welds. IMHO, they're still useable guns, but the "hardness" of the metal has been impacted by the rewelding, and therefore it may not withstand being run over by a tank.:D Normal everyday use shouldn't hurt it any.
     

    mjrducky

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    ETA, I agree that most, if not all Hydra-matics on the registry are re-welds. IMHO, they're still useable guns, but the "hardness" of the metal has been impacted by the rewelding, and therefore it may not withstand being run over by a tank.:D Normal everyday use shouldn't hurt it any.

    Who's got a tank? :laugh: This could be a fun test, can I drive? :D
     

    gunselman

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    I would love to get this back on topic.

    But for those of you who really want to know about the rewelds. I have seen cut receivers at the Indy 1500; Model 1 sales had them.
     

    steif

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    hydra matic

    Hi,
    I have seen one or two non- reweld hydras for sale over the years, I believe the last one was at Kent Lomont's shop when he was in Poneto Indiana. i was not interested in black rifles then, I was more interested in the lewis gun he had for sale..lol..
    If I remember right, the only hydras that are available as transferable were surplus from police departments that were issued or given surplus M16's. a lot of early m16's are transferable because of this.

    As for rewelds, you have to be careful about everything military, someone has rewelded almost every model of gun there is at one time or another. I have seen garands and carbines mostly. but I have seen a couple of 1911's and 1903s as well. Back when they were not available this is what was done.
    Many were done right, but you know a weld is a weld and potential failure point at some time. maybe the weld was done right and holds, but it might break right next to it. you can usually tell a weld because if it was parked or blued after welding, it will always be a different color over the weld because of the different metal characteristics taking on the finish.

    On welding up recievers now for class 3, it is not allowed. it would be the same as a new manufacture. that, of course was stopped in 1986. I guess a manufacturer could weld up a post sample gun, but with all the new manufacture post samples, it would probably be cheaper to find a new production gun.

    even welding a class 3 reciever to only semi would not be allowed. there was a company making M1A recievers from cut M14 pieces, removing the selector stub in the process, and they ended up having everything confiscated. I believe it was MKS but can't remember for sure.
     

    CountryBoy19

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    Nov 10, 2008
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    I would love to get this back on topic.
    I didn't realize it was off-track. In your original post you said you wanted any information about them. We're providing it. IMHO, this is a very educational discussion for somebody that isn't familiar with the hydras.

    Hi,
    I have seen one or two non- reweld hydras for sale over the years, I believe the last one was at Kent Lomont's shop when he was in Poneto Indiana. i was not interested in black rifles then, I was more interested in the lewis gun he had for sale..lol..
    If I remember right, the only hydras that are available as transferable were surplus from police departments that were issued or given surplus M16's. a lot of early m16's are transferable because of this.
    According to the post on arfcom Tony_K says there are less than a half-dozen non-welded hydras. It would be very unlikely for a shop to have 2 of them at once. What you likely saw were some very good re-welds (likely done by Norrel). He did such a good job at rewelding them that ATF confiscated a bunch of lowers because they didn't believe they were re-welded, until they x-rayed them. Norrel had them all promptly returned.

    Either way, if you have the lower in front of you it would be easy to tell if it was a re-weld because the new manufacturer's info should be on it somewhere in addition to the hydramatic info.

    even welding a class 3 reciever to only semi would not be allowed. there was a company making M1A recievers from cut M14 pieces, removing the selector stub in the process, and they ended up having everything confiscated. I believe it was MKS but can't remember for sure.
    I believe you're wrong on this. Once a MG, always a MG only applies until it is no longer a firearm. Once a firearm has been properly demilled, it is no longer a firearm but is now scrap metal. The MG parts can then be modified to not be MG compatible (weld the sear-hole shut etc.) then it can be re-welded into a complete firearm that is considered brand new, as if it was just made that day and never existed before, no history attached.
     

    VUPDblue

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    Mar 20, 2008
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    Hi,
    I have seen one or two non- reweld hydras for sale over the years, I believe the last one was at Kent Lomont's shop when he was in Poneto Indiana. i was not interested in black rifles then, I was more interested in the lewis gun he had for sale..lol..
    If I remember right, the only hydras that are available as transferable were surplus from police departments that were issued or given surplus M16's. a lot of early m16's are transferable because of this.

    As for rewelds, you have to be careful about everything military, someone has rewelded almost every model of gun there is at one time or another. I have seen garands and carbines mostly. but I have seen a couple of 1911's and 1903s as well. Back when they were not available this is what was done.
    Many were done right, but you know a weld is a weld and potential failure point at some time. maybe the weld was done right and holds, but it might break right next to it. you can usually tell a weld because if it was parked or blued after welding, it will always be a different color over the weld because of the different metal characteristics taking on the finish.

    On welding up recievers now for class 3, it is not allowed. it would be the same as a new manufacture. that, of course was stopped in 1986. I guess a manufacturer could weld up a post sample gun, but with all the new manufacture post samples, it would probably be cheaper to find a new production gun.

    even welding a class 3 reciever to only semi would not be allowed. there was a company making M1A recievers from cut M14 pieces, removing the selector stub in the process, and they ended up having everything confiscated. I believe it was MKS but can't remember for sure.

    I would bet that Tony K. is right about the Hydras. If there were 6 non-rewelds on the registry, I would be surprised, I was thinking there may be 2 or 3.
    Some re-welds are done very well, and you can't really tell that they were welded at all. Some giveaways are, like another poster said, finish differences because the finish adheres to the different metals differently, and "fixed" stamps. In the welding/cutting process, the serial numbers and other roll/stamps were damaged or destroyed and had to be replaced for the gun to look right. As with anything, some are better than others, but that's another thing to look for if the font is different or the size of the font or depth of some of the letters is different.
     

    alfahornet

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    Didn't know the hydra were that rare, I certainly came across some (at least one) in my year long search. I never considered them much so I never asked many questions. Reading this I am assuming the one or more I recall seeing for sale were all rewelds.

    Who's got a tank? :laugh: This could be a fun test, can I drive? :D

    :rolleyes: Why would you want to do this to a perfectly good registered receiver ;)
     

    curraheeguns

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    I can't believe you guys are not talking about the rarest of all M16A1's!!!!

    KFC.jpg
     

    mjrducky

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    I looked back through my emails and found the email with the Hyrdra-Matic. Back on January 13th.

    This gentleman offered to sell me his for 14K Said it was 100% vietnam original marked US property. He was looking to sell it because he was wanting to buy a PPSH41 and since that was my max price...

    His info is below incase anyone is looking he might still have it.

    DYER ENGINEERING, INC.
    Jack B. Dyer, P.E., President

    Highland Village, Texas

    Dyer.eng@gmail.com
     
    Last edited:

    Walt_Jabsco

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    Who's got a tank? :laugh: This could be a fun test, can I drive? :D

    I don't mean to drive this further off topic, but I know for a fact that a standard M16/M4 can't stand up to a humvee rolling over it, let alone a tank. It happened once, when I was in Iraq. As I recall, the company commander was fairly pissed off.
     

    Ness2k

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    I don't mean to drive this further off topic, but I know for a fact that a standard M16/M4 can't stand up to a humvee rolling over it, let alone a tank. It happened once, when I was in Iraq. As I recall, the company commander was fairly pissed off.

    I had some :n00b: knock over my M4 when we were unloading a CONEX once, which put it under the rear tire of a humvee we were loading up. The guy drove off, it rolled over my weapon, and all it broke was the plastic snaps on the sling.

    What happened to that one?
     
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