How fast is your draw?

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  • ECS686

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    Does it really matter? One shot kills only happen in movies and on TV. You keep shooting until there is no threat. Are you shooting once then waiting for the perp to respond? I'm
    So we are advocating not putting two or more shots on threats?
    Not necessarily. Some of us are referring that there needs to be a balance of reasonable speed while being able to make the hits while assessing the need AND legal muster (AKA were you justified) for the additional shots.

    Just because there is a scenario where someone wasn’t charged when they (LTCH in town or homeowner) shot someone doesn’t always mean they were technically legal. Several times it come down to the decision of the Prosecutor. Same scenario could shake out totally different in 2 separate counties!
     

    bwframe

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    Not necessarily. Some of us are referring that there needs to be a balance of reasonable speed while being able to make the hits while assessing the need AND legal muster (AKA were you justified) for the additional shots.

    Just because there is a scenario where someone wasn’t charged when they (LTCH in town or homeowner) shot someone doesn’t always mean they were technically legal. Several times it come down to the decision of the Prosecutor. Same scenario could shake out totally different in 2 separate counties!

    So one of you says to pause in the middle of the gunfight to check the threat's pulse and another says pause to assess legalities? :scratch:

    My instruction has always been to stop shooting when the threat is no longer a threat.
     

    Trapper Jim

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    Tactical sequence is a valid thing. The shooting sports prove by penalties that the shooter may habit shoot. Everyone getting one before dispatching wasted or murderous rounds may be prudent. IDPA stopped TS because many didn’t understand it. Too confusing or so they say. Of course, DVC plays a big part in success of TS. Power being very important in the mix.
     
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    ECS686

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    So one of you says to pause in the middle of the gunfight to check the threat's pulse and another says pause to assess legalities? :scratch:

    My instruction has always been to stop shooting when the threat is no longer a threat.
    BW, I can only speak on what I have tried to articulate. Since I mentioned Legalities let me just expand on it. People get way to wrapped up about getting their split times down. Shooting 6 times a second (if you even hit the target in a vital area at that speed) is not going to be any more effective. And it will look a lot worse on your end (think Optics) than that LAPD SWAT’s 1/2 second standard per shot I mentioned (and they make solid stopping hits)

    Assessing is not really pausing it’s just slowing down enough to properly react over what real time info you have to work with so one isn’t going full John Wick.

    You are gonna be held accountable more than one can fathom for EVERY round you fire. There have been many many cases where the first 2 or 3 shots weren’t the problem. The problem was they couldn’t answer for (or the Prosecutor decided to charge them) for the additional rounds where they wouldn’t have shot if 1. They were accurate with 1 or 2 rounds.

    Had those cases done the 1/2 second standard, the threat would be addressed more effectively without firing 15 rounds for only 8 hits.
     
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    bwframe

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    BW, I can only speak on what I have tried to articulate. Since I mentioned Legalities let me just expand on it. People get way to wrapped up about getting their split times down. Shooting 6 times a second (if you even hit the target in a vital area at that speed) is not going to be any more effective. And it will look a lot worse on your end (think Optics) than that LAPD SWAT’s 1/2 second standard per shot I mentioned (and they make solid stopping hits)

    Assessing is not really pausing it’s just slowing down enough to properly react over what real time info you have to work with so one isn’t going full John Wick.

    You are gonna be held accountable more than one can fathom for EVERY round you fire. There have been many many cases where the first 2 or 3 shots weren’t the problem. The problem was they couldn’t answer for (or the Prosecutor decided to charge them) for the additional rounds where they wouldn’t have shot if 1. They were accurate with 1 or 2 rounds.

    Had those cases done the 1/2 second standard, the threat would be addressed more effectively without firing 15 rounds for only 8 hits.

    So you are assuming that fast means inaccurate? Don't we train to shoot fast and accurate?

    Part of the idea of the shooting sports, that you guys brought into this conversation, is to be effectively fast and accurate. It's why there are penalties for misses, bad shots, sometimes extra shots.

    So you guys are saying that we should dial back our ability in a gunfight to assess various conditions before the threat is eliminated? Wait and see whether the threat has the ability to shoot back or not?

    Wait and see whether the weak handgun round medicine has reached effectiveness. while the threat is still a threat?

    I get that you are trying to paint shooting sports shooters as gun gamers. I don't wholly disagree either, but we are not all so one sided. Some of us gun up for the trip home and understand the difference between the range and the street.
     
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    ECS686

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    So you are assuming that fast means inaccurate?
    Outside the competition realm too fast can be a bad thing. But Fast and cyclic are not the same.

    First I won’t say I’m an expert as I am still learning at every class I go to. Forgive the long statement but it sort of explains where I get my thought process from. My experience in 33 years of various LE, that time being involved in a lot of scuffles and seeing shootings first hand. I have shot a ton of combatants with less lethal munitions (yes a little different but the same in a lot of ways) being a Lead Firearms and UOF instructor I was privy to a lot of FLETC data. And the. There’s some Handgun Combative and outside reputable courses I have attended.

    In a defensive use as I mentioned you don’t get a 5 min walk through or you know where each target is AND you have to shoot a minimum of 2.

    On the competition side I’ve seen folks go way to fast at that magic .15 and have a Mike on an IDPA or USPSA target at less than 7 yards. I’ve seen the same stage folks that have the .50-.75 Not have a Mike.

    In a lot of after actions OIS I’ve seen the % of hits go up when that .50-.75 split is the cadence vs the .25 have more rounds fired and less hits all together let alone less effective hits. I have seen several dozen Federal inmates shot with everything still walking around. 1 real thugs (and anyone else for that matter) are hard to kill and don’t study gel tests!

    To me Part of this is that whole “Shoot til the threat goes away mindset. Folks want to go too fast. I get it, you need to make sure the BG is incapacitated (doesn’t matter if he’s dead just not doing bad things any longer. Most mortals can not assess And shoot accurately enough to make good hits in that .10 to .25. Without some luck involved.
     

    cedartop

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    So we are advocating not putting two or more shots on threats?
    I am not sure if I gave that impression. If I did, absolutely not. We shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. I am saying your vision needs to be wide and your shooting needs to be under control in the real world. We humans take about a quarter of a second to react. If you are shooting a bill drill on a person using .15 splits it makes it hard to react to changing tactical environs. This is often seen when officers shoot justifiably but by the time they are done they are now shooting the bad guy in the back. Now you and I know how this happens and don't see it as a problem, but a jury may. Not that I am overly concerned about juries when fighting for my life, but still, avoid problems if you can.

    Also, as TJ alluded to, considerations for more than one threat have to be taken into account. Of course that is a good argument for not carrying a low capacity gun, but if you do, your training should reflect that. Unfortunately, low capacity guns are also usually smaller which means harder to shoot so when you actually need more accuracy because misses are time, you are giving yourself a harder time. But I am getting off track.
     

    bwframe

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    ...In a defensive use as I mentioned you don’t get a 5 min walk through or you know where each target is AND you have to shoot a minimum of 2.

    On the competition side I’ve seen folks go way to fast at that magic .15 and have a Mike on an IDPA or USPSA target at less than 7 yards. I’ve seen the same stage folks that have the .50-.75 Not have a Mike...

    You are assuming that a competition shooter won't know that there isn't a five minute walk through in a SD situation or that they aren't responsible for all of the rounds fired on the street?

    Part of the way we learn how fast we can or can not shoot effectively is in competition. We cannot afford misses on the street, so we shoot as fast as we think we can go in competition to determine how fast is actually too fast. The misses in competition can be a learning experience, for those who will learn.
     
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    JCSR

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    This thread should be renamed. "How to lose in a gunfight". All this critical thinking will have you coming in second place.
     

    ECS686

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    You are assuming that a competition shooter won't know that there isn't a five minute walk through in a SD situation or that they aren't responsible for all of the rounds fired on the street?
    I’m not assuming it’s just a fact that “most” people get into that zone it can be a hard shift if they change gears.

    And a lot, not all but a lot of competition shooters are in it to win it (not knocking it it is a “competition “ and I get it) but the drive of that makes some do things that can be hard to break if it becomes habit. Like that term “training scar” some folks like to use. No competition isn’t training just a generalization and it bears some fruit of what I have observed.
     

    bwframe

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    I am not sure if I gave that impression. If I did, absolutely not. We shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. I am saying your vision needs to be wide and your shooting needs to be under control in the real world. We humans take about a quarter of a second to react. If you are shooting a bill drill on a person using .15 splits it makes it hard to react to changing tactical environs. This is often seen when officers shoot justifiably but by the time they are done they are now shooting the bad guy in the back. Now you and I know how this happens and don't see it as a problem, but a jury may. Not that I am overly concerned about juries when fighting for my life, but still, avoid problems if you can.

    Also, as TJ alluded to, considerations for more than one threat have to be taken into account. Of course that is a good argument for not carrying a low capacity gun, but if you do, your training should reflect that. Unfortunately, low capacity guns are also usually smaller which means harder to shoot so when you actually need more accuracy because misses are time, you are giving yourself a harder time. But I am getting off track.

    The Bill Drill is all about the speed you can do it in. It hones your close range fundamentals because to be consistent, they all need to be right. El Presidente is a similar skill building drill.

    Maybe it's just me and I'm dead wrong? I don't think that because I have shot these drills in competition that I'm ruined to self defense carry? Maybe I'm wrong? Could be that I'll do the mandatory mag change between threats?
     

    JCSR

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    The Bill Drill is all about the speed you can do it in. It hones your close range fundamentals because to be consistent, they all need to be right. El Presidente is a similar skill building drill.

    Maybe it's just me and I'm dead wrong? I don't think that because I have shot these drills in competition that I'm ruined to self defense carry? Maybe I'm wrong? Could be that I'll do the mandatory mag change between threats?
    You are correct. I just hope no new shooters are reading this garbage.
     
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