How fast is your draw?

[MCgrease08]

Why in the heck is this video age restricted? This one probably has the fewest curse words I've ever heard in a Clint Smith video.

 

[JCSR]

Why in the heck is this video age restricted? This one probably has the fewest curse words I've ever heard in a Clint Smith video.

He says "guns" several times.

 

[cedartop]

The Bill Drill is all about the speed you can do it in. It hones your close range fundamentals because to be consistent, they all need to be right. El Presidente is a similar skill building drill.

Maybe it's just me and I'm dead wrong? I don't think that because I have shot these drills in competition that I'm ruined to self defense carry? Maybe I'm wrong? Could be that I'll do the mandatory mag change between threats?

I guess you have lost me. I compete and believe it is a good thing. I am well aware of the purpose of drills and post them all of the time. I am merely advocating for a well rounded and firmly founded skill set that factors in the complexities of a 360 degree world. I am all about being as fast as you possibly can working within your intended accuracy parameters. Again, control of your shooting and as much as possible your emotions.

We also need to keep in mind, if you are learning, you will see things differently over time. Back in the day I believed in the one shot stop and other unicorns. Nothing says I won't change my mind about more things. I am still on a journey.

 

[bwframe]

I guess you have lost me. I compete and believe it is a good thing. I am well aware of the purpose of drills and post them all of the time. I am merely advocating for a well rounded and firmly founded skill set that factors in the complexities of a 360 degree world. I am all about being as fast as you possibly can working within your intended accuracy parameters. Again, control of your shooting and as much as possible your emotions.

We also need to keep in mind, if you are learning, you will see things differently over time. Back in the day I believed in the one shot stop and other unicorns. Nothing says I won't change my mind about more things. I am still on a journey.

We are on the same page sir.

You and I will likely not ever be in that gunfight for a couple reasons;
- We'll see the problem before it happens and act accordingly.
- We are really poor at being victims and that will be obvious to predators.

 

[ECS686]

You are correct. I just hope no new shooters are reading this garbage.

JCSR, respectfully, anyone can do whatever they wish. They just better make sure the career and bank account can handle it.

Watch or listen to some of Daryl Bolkie, Wayne Dobbs, Scott Reitz or others that have been there done that Podcasts. Pretty much relevant and is pretty much what some are relating here. Believe it or not. It’s Not quite Garbage as you labeled it.

 

[2in1evtime]

 

[backtrail540]

I think the need for shooting at a speed that one can react to changing downrange conditions is hard for many to grasp where that line is because it isn't easy to setup or practice outside of force on force. For any number of reasons you need to be able to stop shooting just as quickly as you need to be able to start shooting.

A few examples are the loss of immence from the threat - they drop their weapon or run away (without immence you are no longer legally justified in shooting them), a non threat gets between you and the threat or behind the threat (if you are shooting faster than you can process this and don't stop shooting then it should be obvious that you aren't legally justified in shooting non threats), you make your hits and the threat falls (if you dont' realize this and extra rounds are fired, you are responsible for wherever they land etc...despite needing to know what's beyond your target things like richochets etc...do occur and you're no less culpable - the old phrase "there are no misses, just unintended hits" comes to mind).

Every person is going to have a different threshold to what speed they can process and react etc...but part of the point of cadence shooting, or at least my understanding of it, is that you are able to shoot at a controlled pace while being able to focus on changing conditions downrange. Hence why the big names often cite the .5 splits etc...more people are able to stop shooting when necessary at this cadence, fewer at the .25 cadence.

Gabe White came up with a drill to get a taste of this. Grab your timer and set it to a random start, preferably within a window that you can draw and start shooting several rounds (I use 2-3 seconds). As soon as you press the start button, immediately draw and fire several shots to the com target of your choice (a zone, 8" circle, steel, whatever works for you). Once the timer goes off you need to stop shooting. Any rounds after the beep represent shooting after the loss of immenence or after a non threat has gotten in the way or the threat is down - whatever stimulus may occur that you are no longer legally justified in shooting. It isn't perfect since you're reacting to an audible stimulus rather than a visual stimulus but it should drive home the point.

If you shoot faster than you can react and have hits (or misses) after the timer starts (it will only catch these since you're supposed to only shoot before the beep) then work with slower splits until you find the speed at which you can react to a stimulus and stop shooting when necessary.


All that isn't to say being able to control the gun at teen splits isn't a good skill to have. It is. Being able to control the gun at those speeds allows one to shoot .5 (or .4 or .35 etc...wherever your personal threshold is) splits with much less effort and thus allowing them to focus on downrange conditions. But if you can't assess what's happening during the shooting because you're running at the ragged edge of your ability, then you may set yourself for unintended consequences that are avoidable if you put in effort to differentiate the two.

 

[Johnny Chimpo Shooter]

I’m not assuming it’s just a fact that “most” people get into that zone it can be a hard shift if they change gears.

And a lot, not all but a lot of competition shooters are in it to win it (not knocking it it is a “competition “ and I get it) but the drive of that makes some do things that can be hard to break if it becomes habit. Like that term “training scar” some folks like to use. No competition isn’t training just a generalization and it bears some fruit of what I have observed.

Lots of "facts" with no evidence

 

[ECS686]

Lots of "facts" with no evidence

Johnny Chimpo, Reapectfully one can think whatever they want. And I can only answer for my posts. Just relaying about 34 years experience of being involved in use of force incidents, and after action reports, interviews FLETC stuff as well as national trainers who I have taken classes from.

A lot of these Trainers have been involved in either shootings/Use Of Force things themselves OR several of their their Alumni have. That’s a pretty good pool or resource to get data from. So that’s sort of where the evidence is.

So if one doesn’t want to take that as reputable or “fact” whatever.

 

[Johnny Chimpo Shooter]

Johnny Chimpo, Reapectfully one can think whatever they want. And I can only answer for my posts. Just relaying about 34 years experience of being involved in use of force incidents, and after action reports, interviews FLETC stuff as well as national trainers who I have taken classes from.

A lot of these Trainers have been involved in either shootings/Use Of Force things themselves OR several of their their Alumni have. That’s a pretty good pool or resource to get data from. So that’s sort of where the evidence is.

So if one doesn’t want to take that as reputable or “fact” whatever.

So like in much of the "training" and "tactical" world, anecdotes get confused with data.

Got it. Thanks.