How do we go about real compromise?

[AndreusMaximus]

When you talk of compromising a Constitutional Right, you are ready to give up.

That's like saying that strategically retreating from a position in order to redirect forces to a more important battle front is the same as surrendering in a war.

You talk a big talk, but I bet you don't openly violate laws that infringe on the 2nd amendment, do you? If you're ready to actually start resisting the government's infringements on our rights, I'm all ears. But until then, we have to accept the hand we've been dealt, and so far putting on a bunch of bravado about never compromising isn't accomplishing anything for us.

To put it differently, we both agree on the end game, but I just think we have to stop pretending that we can get there in one step, and start strategizing realistically about how we can actually hope to make a step in the right direction, or at least slow down the mad rush in the wrong direction.

 

[jbombelli]

That's like saying that strategically retreating from a position in order to redirect forces to a more important battle front is the same as surrendering in a war.

You talk a big talk, but I bet you don't openly violate laws that infringe on the 2nd amendment, do you? If you're ready to actually start resisting the government's infringements on our rights, I'm all ears. But until then, we have to accept the hand we've been dealt, and so far putting on a bunch of bravado about never compromising isn't accomplishing anything for us.

To put it differently, we both agree on the end game, but I just think we have to stop pretending that we can get there in one step, and start strategizing realistically about how we can actually hope to make a step in the right direction, or at least slow down the mad rush in the wrong direction.

We don't win by giving ground in this fight. We only lose, a bit at a time, every time.

 

[Robert Richardson]

Not big talk. Just stating the facts on the way it is. There is nothing to talk to them about anymore. It falls on deaf ears. You can stand on and use all the boxes you want. The way things are going now that last box will probably be opened soon.

 

[actaeon277]

Here's my compromise.


We get rid of ALL GUN LAWS.

But, we compromise by only getting rid of 1/2 of ALL gun laws.

Then, in a year, we do the same.

That's my compromise.

 

[Magyars]

What a pipe dream! The gun control tide is coming in. There is little to stop it. As many gun owners here have shown, they hate the NRA, so pro-gunners are a splintered group without one voice. We can gripe and type, but some very restrictive gun control legislation is going to get passed. Gun owners will get nothing in return. Tens of thousands of anti-gun protesters will be listened to in Washington D.C.

Your a bit of a troll aren't you?
Maybe DU is a better fit for your political persuasion.

 

[Leadeye]

Leadership of any kind is uncomfortable with even the idea of you being armed, end of story. The difference is, that leadership that wants to remain leadership in areas where people want to be armed has to listen or they won't be in charge the next election.

Big media promotes the idea that some how leadership is scared of the NRA, which is false. Leadership that needs the votes of gun owners to stay in power listens to those voters whether they are NRA members or not.

Leadership that doesn't need the votes of gun owners , the kind that represent big city machines and academia, can exercise their fears of you being armed to their fullest expression.

When more people believe that gun ownership is important, gun rights advance. Hipsters that believe the government protects them and solves all problems have no use for guns.

 

[KG1]

Stand firm GOP. Don't screw this up. Take back the narrative from the Democrats.

They are trying to gain ground before the midterms on issues like RvW and gun control. Hit them back with core polling issues at the top of the list that we are wining on like inflation, gas prices, shortages etc.

 

[actaeon277]

The "wave" may just be generated by the press.

DON'T give in.

 

[actaeon277]

AAAARRRRGGGHHHH!


Beaten to the punch by LESS THAN A MINUTE.

 

[KG1]

AAAARRRRGGGHHHH!


Beaten to the punch by LESS THAN A MINUTE.

I've been working on that post for abit before I got distracted and finally hit the submit button right before you did. We both agree though that It's a good relevant youtube take no matter who posted it. He's one of the youtubers I've been following on this issue.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

So could you please sketch out more fully how you think we can "defeat" the "slimy moderates" by compromising with them? I want to make sure I understand your idea.

You've given some examples of "these-es" that could be traded for "that-s," but no idea of the mechanics of how you actually get to agreement on those things.

I really want to understand how we open that can of worms, without losing control of the process and just getting another Brady Bill with nothing in it for us.

And more importantly - I want to make sure _you_ understand that process, and aren't totally mis-characterizing the character and intentions of people you're proposing to make the deal with.

This is the exactly the part that I was hoping to generate discussion on, since I honestly don't know just a whole lot about the process. If someone says that they just don't think my idea is possible with our current batch of politicians in office, I'm willing to accept that argument. At least then we're thinking strategically and moving the conversation into real-world terms instead of pie in the sky idealizing about never ever compromising on anything.

But to try to answer the question:

I honestly don't know; but what do you think would happen if some pro-2A republicans in the senate, today, proposed a bill that, say, required all firearm purchases by someone under 21 to have a waiting period and enhanced background check (meaning that they'd check juvenile records) but the same bill de-regulated suppressors? The first part is something that's very likely to go through anyways, and left/"moderate" senators may realize that and just ignore this proposal, but if nothing else it would start to send a message of hey, you take something from us, give us something in return.

But what if they had got in early on in the process with this sort of idea? I honestly think it would have changed the way things played out for the better. We get all angry when we hear that such and such senator is "working with" democrats on crafting a gun control bill, but what if actual pro-2a republicans did just that, and used that as an opportunity to stick something we like into one of these bills? You know some people on the left would never consider voting for the bill then, and this would give us more leverage. The "moderates" in the middle would get their wish because they could go on about how they were working on a bi-partisan compromise bill. The end result may be that the whole thing just dies because the ultra-lefties would never consider giving us any of our rights back, but if that's the results, I see that as a win, too, over the alternative.

Has this sort of thing ever been tried before? Am I just dreaming here? I'm willing to listen and be corrected, but I just don't recall this sort of thing even being tried before.

I'm perfectly willing to be told that my idea would never work in practice. But please, I just don't see how we can keep pretending that we can make gains by never, ever, under any circumstances being willing to compromise.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

We don't win by giving ground in this fight. We only lose, a bit at a time, every time.

The ground is being given up; that's not changing.

All I'm saying is, can we maybe think about while they're busy taking ground from us in one area, trying to use the opportunity to take back some ground in another? Because so far we haven't taken ANY ground back that I'm aware of (at least on the federal level) so I think we really may need to get creative here.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

Not big talk. Just stating the facts on the way it is. There is nothing to talk to them about anymore. It falls on deaf ears. You can stand on and use all the boxes you want. The way things are going now that last box will probably be opened soon.

I can't seem to get a read on where you're coming from. One moment you're talking about fighting for what we believe in, the next it sounds like you're saying the fight's already lost.

Should we or should we not be still trying to win the fight politically? If yes, why do you think that the "never compromise" position is going to become any more persuasive to our politicians and the population at large than it has been up until now? If no, what should we be doing?

 

[actaeon277]

New York has banned civilian body armor.
There is NO compromise.

Only the "elite" can defend themselves.
That's how we need to frame it.

The elite can have guns, guards, body armor.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

Stand firm GOP. Don't screw this up. Take back the narrative from the Democrats.

They are trying to gain ground before the midterms on issues like RvW and gun control. Hit them back with core polling issues at the top of the list that we are wining on like inflation, gas prices, shortages etc.

The "wave" may just be generated by the press.

DON'T give in.

My fear is that things are going to play out like this: Democrats pass their gun control bill with only one or two republican votes. Then democrats take a beating in the midterms, and lose control of Congress. Now that republicans are in charge again, they say, oh, we just need to win the presidency before we can accomplish anything. So they win the presidency in 2024. But as soon as that happens, they come up with another excuse for not getting rid of the infringements on our 2A rights. Another four years, and people are fed up and frustrated with the republicans, and the democrats win everything back again, and we're left back where we were anyways, with whatever new gun law the democrats cooked up still on the books, and the fact that it cost them an election doesn't mean anything.

It's the same story we saw play out with repealing Obamacare, and it's same story we've seen play out with gun control, and so many other issues were the central state continues to worm its tentacles into more and more aspects of our lives.

My question is; how do we break this cycle? We have very few politicians who actually, genuinely support our 2A rights. How can they strategize to actually do something for us to get rid of at least some of these infringements?

Or do you honestly see things changing after the midterms? Do you really think that if republicans take back Congress, then get the presidency back in 2024, that they'll repeal some gun laws this time? I'd like to believe that, too, but I'm just not sure I can see it happening.

 

[KG1]

New York has banned civilian body armor.
There is NO compromise.

Only the "elite" can defend themselves.
That's how we need to frame it.

The elite can have guns, guards, body armor.

Exactly. Everything they do is geared toward making law abiding citizens defenseless.

 

[KG1]

My fear is that things are going to play out like this: Democrats pass their gun control bill with only one or two republican votes. Then democrats take a beating in the midterms, and lose control of Congress. Now that republicans are in charge again, they say, oh, we just need to win the presidency before we can accomplish anything. So they win the presidency in 2024. But as soon as that happens, they come up with another excuse for not getting rid of the infringements on our 2A rights. Another four years, and people are fed up and frustrated with the republicans, and the democrats win everything back again, and we're left back where we were anyways, with whatever new gun law the democrats cooked up still on the books, and the fact that it cost them an election doesn't mean anything.

It's the same story we saw play out with repealing Obamacare, and it's same story we've seen play out with gun control, and so many other issues were the central state continues to worm its tentacles into more and more aspects of our lives.

My question is; how do we break this cycle? We have very few politicians who actually, genuinely support our 2A rights. How can they strategize to actually do something for us to get rid of at least some of these infringements?

Or do you honestly see things changing after the midterms? Do you really think that if republicans take back Congress, then get the presidency back in 2024, that they'll repeal some gun laws this time? I'd like to believe that, too, but I'm just not sure I can see it happening.

The answer is to stiffen the spine and not get all wobbly by engaging in excessive hand wringing. "I'm afraid of this, I'm afraid of that"

 

[actaeon277]

My fear is that things are going to play out like this: Democrats pass their gun control bill with only one or two republican votes. Then democrats take a beating in the midterms, and lose control of Congress. Now that republicans are in charge again, they say, oh, we just need to win the presidency before we can accomplish anything. So they win the presidency in 2024. But as soon as that happens, they come up with another excuse for not getting rid of the infringements on our 2A rights. Another four years, and people are fed up and frustrated with the republicans, and the democrats win everything back again, and we're left back where we were anyways, with whatever new gun law the democrats cooked up still on the books, and the fact that it cost them an election doesn't mean anything.

It's the same story we saw play out with repealing Obamacare, and it's same story we've seen play out with gun control, and so many other issues were the central state continues to worm its tentacles into more and more aspects of our lives.

My question is; how do we break this cycle? We have very few politicians who actually, genuinely support our 2A rights. How can they strategize to actually do something for us to get rid of at least some of these infringements?

Or do you honestly see things changing after the midterms? Do you really think that if republicans take back Congress, then get the presidency back in 2024, that they'll repeal some gun laws this time? I'd like to believe that, too, but I'm just not sure I can see it happening.

Yes.
The Dems push the goal.
The Repubs do nothing.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

Exactly. Everything they do is geared toward making law abiding citizens defenseless.

But what are we supposed to actually do, then?

Yes, there are many, many people on the left who have absolutely no interest in compromise; they want to us turned into disarmed, obedient sheep who go along with their new world order without question, and nothing will rid them of their relentless pursuit towards that goal.

But the fact is that there are also a large number of people in this country who don't know, don't understand, and don't care about our 2nd amendment rights one way or another. And many of them just want to be told that their representative worked across the aisle to compromise and get things done, yada yada. And when the left comes to these people with a bill that they claim is a "compromise" that doesn't take away 2A rights, but just puts "common sense" limits on them, these people, and more importantly the representatives they elected, go for it.

When you have near-equal numbers of people who actually care split on both sides of an issue, then this is how you end up. The ones in the middle who are ignorant and don't care are the swing votes that make the difference, and the reason the left has been so successful is because they know just how to play the twisted game of getting these people to go along. As much as we hate to do it, I honestly think we're going to have to learn to play the game sooner or later, because I just don't see a majority of Americans coming to appreciate and value our 2A rights any time soon.

 

[Cameramonkey]

The mindset of those against guns is summed up by the congressman who, during the recent House committee hearings on gun legislation, said "spare me the BS about constitutional rights".
They want to ban guns. Completely.

This tells me he doesnt care about his oath of office. He needs to be removed from his position.