Had my first squib load - looking for input

[mark40sw]

Years ago, I had squib in one of my 500 magnums (x frame revolver). Loaded with imr4227. Only thing like that I ever had.
I always wet tumble and use redding measure. 500mags I run on single stage press and check powder levels twice before seating bullets.
Case had clumped unburned "crystalized" looking powder in it.

I load a lot of 44 & 500 magnum with h110, enforcer, unique... never any issues for many years. I shy away from 4227 since then.

 

[led4thehed2]

Bingo. Powder doesnt just decide not to burn. You had contamination. Try burning that clump by hand with a BBQ lighter or fireplace match by chance?

I wish! I tried to save the clump to photograph it but it fell out of the barrel and fell apart. There were other, much smaller clumps, but they too broke apart as soon as touched. Really wished I had just grabbed my phone right away and photographed everything, but hindsight be 20/20 I guess.

 

[led4thehed2]

I mean like a hangfire. Since there was unburned powder I would think the bullet came unseated early so the powder wasn't fully compressed, contamination of powder that resulted in not fully burning, or a low charge which will also result in unburned powder left over.

What kind of crimp are you using?
Do you use case lube?

Ah, okay - no I don't feel like it was a hangfire. The round seemed to detonate right away, it was just pitifully weak.

As far as crimping, I use the Lee 4 die pistol carbide die set - should be a roll crimp. This is the one area of the process I feel I may still be trying to get it right. In my online research, seemed most recommended a good strong roll crimp for full-blown Magnum loads. On the other hand, I'm using inexpensive plated bullets, whose websites recommend a lighter crimp so as not to puncture the plating and deform the lead core. So...I guess I'm trying to walk the line between the two. I'd recently started using a slightly heavier crimp, but I'd say it's still on the lighter end of the spectrum.

Case lube - yep - Imperial sizing wax applied very sparingly to the exterior. Once resized, it gets wiped off with a clean microfiber cloth. The liquid spray lube gets used on my autoloader brass.

 

[led4thehed2]

Good point on the crimp. Slow burning powders in magnum handgun loads need a pretty firm crimp to allow pressure to build enough to ensure a complete burn.

A good reminder - I may need to adjust my crimping die for a more secure crimp. I've possibly been too cautious in not wanting to puncture the bullet's copper plating, and failed to properly secure it. This seems to be a gray area, with no exact number for me to measure against, a bit of an artform.

 

[led4thehed2]

I dont deprime first for this very reason. I dont find that the spent primers contaminate the media much faster than without. And if you are going to add polish, two warnings. ESPECIALLY for magnums;

-Dont use random automotive or metal polishes that contain ammonia. Ammonia weakens brass. Specialty, brass safe polishes are not expensive, so there is no reason to not use it. It probably wont damage the gun, but you wont get as many reloads out of the brass.

- Run your tumbler for at least 30 mins after adding polish. I also stop my vibratory tumbler after 15 and use my finger to wipe the bowl through the media to dislodge any crusties that stuck to the bowl before turning it back on for the second half to incorporate that bit that WILL come loose once the brass starts hitting it. More often than not I find some. I could see the scenario of absent mindedly* adding polish during tumbling result in a blob sticking hard enough to the side of the inside of the case it wouldnt dislodge during tapping.

But it HAS to be powder contamination. Because once that spark, any spark, gets through the flash hole, ALL The live powder is gonna burn. Period. End of sentence. Full stop. Something has to keep that last pea sized glob from touching off. If it were a flash hole problem, either it all goes, or nothing goes. (unless something chemically prevents the chain reaction.

*Or maybe he has added polish during the tumble for years and this is just the first time a blob has made it into the case.

Ah, excellent points. I believe he uses a polish that is specifically made for brass, but I do believe he simply glops it in with all the brass and media and then starts the tumbler. I've only watched him do it one time, so I'll have to ask and double check his process.

 

[led4thehed2]

Undersized charges will leave unburned powder. Just because some lit doesn't mean it all burnt. Also 4227 with this charge in 44 mag should be a compressed load, if it's loose at ignition it can also leave unburned powder. Yes it could also be contamination, especially since it's known he uses a polish additive. So it's not true that just because the powder lit that it will always burn the entire charge, you can have unburned powder without contamination.

I noticed that when using less than maximum loads of 4227 there is a lot of unburned powder. But up until today, the full 24 grain load had worked rather well for me.

 

[Bill2905]

I noticed that when using less than maximum loads of 4227 there is a lot of unburned powder. But up until today, the full 24 grain load had worked rather well for me.

That's why a lot of manuals will advise you not to reduce charges below minimum for slow burning powders. It doesn't always happen but it's a risk. You can usually get away with it with the faster pistol powders like Bullseye and W231.

 

[Bill2905]

Ah, excellent points. I believe he uses a polish that is specifically made for brass, but I do believe he simply glops it in with all the brass and media and then starts the tumbler. I've only watched him do it one time, so I'll have to ask and double check his process.

The best way I have found to use liquid polish is to start the tumbler with no brass and add the polish. Let it tumble in for 5-10 minutes or so. I help it along by breaking up the clumps with my fingers as they rise to the surface.

 

[led4thehed2]

That's why a lot of manuals will advise you not to reduce charges below minimum for slow burning powders. It doesn't always happen but it's a risk. You can usually get away with it with the faster pistol powders like Bullseye and W231.

Well I didn't go below the minimum recommended loads for 4227, I always stayed within the recommended 22 - 24 grains. It was my 22, 22.5 grain loads that left unburnt powder.

Maybe I'm a newb, but do folks really make a habit of going under the recommended minimums? Seems....not wise.

 

[led4thehed2]

The best way I have found to use liquid polish is to start the tumbler with no brass and add the polish. Let it tumble in for 5-10 minutes or so. I help it along by breaking up the clumps with my fingers as they rise to the surface.

This makes sense, and sounds like an excellent ide. Thank you for sharing this info.

 

[DadSmith]

The only squib rds I've had were factory and I've had 2 in my entire life. Both factory rds did not have enough powder. The last time I had a problem was with Federal Gold Metal Match 38 special.



I contacted Federal and they sent a return box and paid for shipping for the remainder of what I had left. They also replaced it.

I use aluminum rods I get from the local hardware to drive mine out so it doesn't mess up the rifling. You can also buy them in different thicknesses depending on caliber.

 

[Bill2905]

Well I didn't go below the minimum recommended loads for 4227, I always stayed within the recommended 22 - 24 grains. It was my 22, 22.5 grain loads that left unburnt powder.

Maybe I'm a newb, but do folks really make a habit of going under the recommended minimums? Seems....not wise.

Human beings are always curious and experimenting so I'm sure it happens. You just have to test it out with caution to see how it works.

 

[Jaybird1980]

Well I didn't go below the minimum recommended loads for 4227, I always stayed within the recommended 22 - 24 grains. It was my 22, 22.5 grain loads that left unburnt powder.

Maybe I'm a newb, but do folks really make a habit of going under the recommended minimums? Seems....not wise.

Imr 4227 is notorious for leaving unburnt powder, rumor is it burns more complete in a rifle (I have no experience with that). Yes some people experiment with real low charges, but it is definitely not recommended with imr 4227. I think Hodgdon makes it clear to not go below starting point.

I have used 4227 in 44 mag, but I prefer 2400. I have a buddy who uses only Win 296/H110 in 44.

As far as the crimp goes, I always used a good strong crimp on magnum rounds. You could always load six rounds, shoot five, measure the sixth round OAL and see if it grew. Then repeat the same process leaving that same sixth round unfired and then measure again.

 

[Leadeye]

I've not used 4227 in the 44 mag since my silhouette shooting days in the 70s, it would leave unburned kernels behind the ejector star binding the cylinder on the Model 29. Had a squib with 4227 in 45 Colt once experimenting with lower charges and heavier cast bullets. That had a clump of unburned powder in it and the case had not been cleaned at all. Like Jaybird 1980 my 44 mags, 454s and 45 Colt loads now get 2400, WW296/H110.

 

[led4thehed2]

Imr 4227 is notorious for leaving unburnt powder, rumor is it burns more complete in a rifle (I have no experience with that). Yes some people experiment with real low charges, but it is definitely not recommended with imr 4227. I think Hodgdon makes it clear to not go below starting point.

I have used 4227 in 44 mag, but I prefer 2400. I have a buddy who uses only Win 296/H110 in 44.

As far as the crimp goes, I always used a good strong crimp on magnum rounds. You could always load six rounds, shoot five, measure the sixth round OAL and see if it grew. Then repeat the same process leaving that same sixth round unfired and then measure again.

I did more research on crimping, and it seems I have been applying too little. My rounds consistently measured near or above the SAAMI max of .460". I hadn't even realized this was a measurement that could be "within spec". *facepalm* After a bit of trial and error, I think I now have good results. The brass curves slightly inward to meet the cannelure now.

Before on the RIGHT, after adjustments on the LEFT.

 

[led4thehed2]

I've not used 4227 in the 44 mag since my silhouette shooting days in the 70s, it would leave unburned kernels behind the ejector star binding the cylinder on the Model 29. Had a squib with 4227 in 45 Colt once experimenting with lower charges and heavier cast bullets. That had a clump of unburned powder in it and the case had not been cleaned at all. Like Jaybird 1980 my 44 mags, 454s and 45 Colt loads now get 2400, WW296/H110.

The max load for H110/Win 296 works nicely for me as well. I just found a pound of 2400 and had plans to test it out the other day, but I guess the universe had other plans.

 

[Jaybird1980]

The max load for H110/Win 296 works nicely for me as well. I just found a pound of 2400 and had plans to test it out the other day, but I guess the universe had other plans.

My only issue with H110/296 is the narrow loading window. I don't remember exactly, but it was only like 1.5 grains between max and min.

I did more research on crimping, and it seems I have been applying too little. My rounds consistently measured near or above the SAAMI max of .460". I hadn't even realized this was a measurement that could be "within spec". *facepalm* After a bit of trial and error, I think I now have good results. The brass curves slightly inward to meet the cannelure now.

Before on the RIGHT, after adjustments on the LEFT.

The crimp on the left does look better, right wouldn't fly with me in a gun with decent recoil.

 

[Leadeye]

I should include Lil'Gun in that group, it works best with really heavy bullets and high loads. I have a 45 Colt load using a 325 grain Lyman cast gas check bullet that went through a deer front to back at 30+ yards. Fired in a Henry Big Boy.

 

[led4thehed2]

My only issue with H110/296 is the narrow loading window. I don't remember exactly, but it was only like 1.5 grains between max and min.


The crimp on the left does look better, right wouldn't fly with me in a gun with decent recoil.

Yeah, 1 grain Difference between minimum and maximum.

It's nice to hear That I'm making progress toward a better crimp. Your analysis and feedback is very much appreciated.

 

[led4thehed2]

I should include Lil'Gun in that group, it works best with really heavy bullets and high loads. I have a 45 Colt load using a 325 grain Lyman cast gas check bullet that went through a deer front to back at 30+ yards. Fired in a Henry Big Boy.

I haven't tried anything heavier than 240 grain bullets, but my gun does like a 24 grain dose of will gun. I appreciate the suggestion.