Gun safes and fires..

[Small's]

Anyone have any experience with gun safes and fires? I've been doing alot of reading on it and from what I'm seeing is that most of the mfg claimed numbers are lies. From what I understand none of the safes even meet the UL marks for a fire rated safe. Just curious what others have seen. I have seen a few videos of ones that have survived fires. I'm kinda looking around at safes to see how are built etc. Seems like 99% use drywall and some use ceramic liners etc. I'd like to buy a johnson and I may but he is backed up about a year. Anyway are any of you guys firefighters or insurance adjusters. Just curious what you've seen?

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[Bigtanker]

A few years ago, my in-laws had a house fire. Total loss. Some guns were in a new safe that was a pretty decently rated. The only difference between the guns inside and outside was the soot. The ones inside baked just as much as the others.

Now granted, this was a log cabin and it burned really hot. And the safe was in an interior room.

 

[DRob]

I think you need to read the small print and do some research on the temps a typical house fire may reach. All the fire-rated safes I've seen list a temperature FOR A SPECIFIC TIME FRAME. Not very long. Perhaps a better gauge is how far away is the closest fire station.

 

[Bigtanker]

No personal experience but I've heard these are some of the better fire safes.

[video=youtube_share;K5RCQQKXeTA]http://youtu.be/K5RCQQKXeTA[/video]

 

[JettaKnight]

I think you need to read the small print and do some research on the temps a typical house fire may reach. All the fire-rated safes I've seen list a temperature FOR A SPECIFIC TIME FRAME. Not very long. Perhaps a better gauge is how far away is the closest fire station.

Given enough time, all (passive) objects assume the temperature of their surroundings.



Sprinkler system anyone? I'd not sure how code compliant it is, but I put in small residential sprinkler heads next to mine. It just so happened that a cold water line crossed that path in the basement.

 

[Alamo]

This guy: Honest Gun Safe Reviews, Trusted Since 2013 - Gun Safe Reviews Guy
has a lot of good info on safes, gun "safes," fire ratings and the like.

He asks a good question: is the cost of getting and actual UL fire rated safe more than the value of the guns? Maybe more insurance is the answer, at least for non-heirloom stuff. Also points out that not only do "gun safes" rarely meet UL fire ratings, they don't even meet UL ratings as a safe. They are residential security containers styled to look like safes.

If burglary is your number one threat to the guns (most likely that's the case), hidden away in the basement is probably the best spot, especially if secured behind doors, bolted to the floor and/or walls, and/or hidden. If your house burns down, the basement is probably the worst place -- unless the FD gets there fast enough, the burning house parts will collapse into the basement, and the water used to put out the fire will end up in the basement as well.

Even if the safe is on the second floor, it may end up in the basement anyway during a fire. The UL fire rating includes a drop test simulating this that tests the integrity of the safe after dropping it some number of feet onto a pile of bricks, but that doesn't mean the contents of the safe will survive.

If possible put an actual UL fire-rated safe against an outside wall or corner where intensity of the fire probably won't be at a peak (as it would in middle of house or in basement), and hope it falls out of the house instead of into the basement when the whole she-bang collapses. Or put it on an outside wall of the garage as far away from the house as possible. (and put that sprinkler system over it like JettaKnight). Of course putting it in the garage makes it easer for burglars to steal the whole thing and is not convenient access from the house for you, so... ??

As the safe review guy says, spending $$ on fire ratings and protection might not be worthwhile.

If you spend some time on eBay or craigslist, you can probably come up with used UL TL-15 or TL-30 safe big enough to hold guns for the same price as new gun safe. Or check with actual safe suppliers (like to jewelry stores and such) in Indy to see if they have a used safe for sale.

Good luck.

 

[dieselrealtor]

Back in the late 80's I had a friend that was a gun enthusiast & deputy reservist. He had some NFA items at that time, before gun safes were really a thing. He built a closet in his house (slab I believe) with about 3" of drywall all the way around, framed heavily, fire rated door with multiple deadbolts.

If you have the time, space & ability might be an option to put a safe in a closet & do something similar. 2 layers of protection should greatly reduce heat penetration.

 

[Alamo]

Drywall is not designed to be a longterm fireproofing material. It is designed only to temporarily slow fire long enough for the fire to be detected, the alarm raised, and you to get out of the house.

Although it is called "dry" wall, it actually has water chemically bonded in the gypsum, 21% water by weight. When fire hits it, that moisture begins to heat up, disassociate chemically, and boil off, along with any moisture absorbed from your house's humidity (so your guns will get a chemical steam bath). This process absorbs heat from the fire, protecting whatever is on the other side of the drywall. But when that water is finally gone the remaining gypsum will crumble and fall to the floor, or bottom of the safe or closet. Every house fire I was in as a firefighter I walked around ankle deep or more in crumbled sheetrock.

Conventional 1/2" drywall is supposed to delay fire for 30 minutes under certain test conditions. There are improved versions, 5/8" Type X, that include glass fibers that are supposed to double this to 60 minutes, again under test conditions, and require that all joints are properly taped and floated, and any holes (switchboxes) are properly caulked. That may or may not translate to stacking sheetrock in the walls of a safe or closet, and I don't know if two layers actually double the time. At least overlap the joints so there is not a seam all the way through where the edges/corners meet.

Certainly it wouldn't be terribly expensive to line a closet with drywall and arrange to overlap the joints etc, and it would probably provide some protection, but it would not be a guarantee. I'd at least line the space with sheets of metal so that when the drywall does collapse it doesn't fall all over the contents. Covering a "real" save with layers of drywall (e.g. by layering a closet and putting the safe in the closet) would be more fire-resistant than the safe by itself, but I would still make sure the guns are insured.

 

[jaymark6655]

Drywall is not designed to be a longterm fireproofing material. It is designed only to temporarily slow fire long enough for the fire to be detected, the alarm raised, and you to get out of the house.

Although it is called "dry" wall, it actually has water chemically bonded in the gypsum, 21% water by weight. When fire hits it, that moisture begins to heat up, disassociate chemically, and boil off, along with any moisture absorbed from your house's humidity (so your guns will get a chemical steam bath). This process absorbs heat from the fire, protecting whatever is on the other side of the drywall. But when that water is finally gone the remaining gypsum will crumble and fall to the floor, or bottom of the safe or closet. Every house fire I was in as a firefighter I walked around ankle deep or more in crumbled sheetrock.

Conventional 1/2" drywall is supposed to delay fire for 30 minutes under certain test conditions. There are improved versions, 5/8" Type X, that include glass fibers that are supposed to double this to 60 minutes, again under test conditions, and require that all joints are properly taped and floated, and any holes (switchboxes) are properly caulked. That may or may not translate to stacking sheetrock in the walls of a safe or closet, and I don't know if two layers actually double the time. At least overlap the joints so there is not a seam all the way through where the edges/corners meet.

Certainly it wouldn't be terribly expensive to line a closet with drywall and arrange to overlap the joints etc, and it would probably provide some protection, but it would not be a guarantee. I'd at least line the space with sheets of metal so that when the drywall does collapse it doesn't fall all over the contents. Covering a "real" save with layers of drywall (e.g. by layering a closet and putting the safe in the closet) would be more fire-resistant than the safe by itself, but I would still make sure the guns are insured.

Spot on description on how drywall does/doesn't protect firearms from fire inside a safe. I had to design on as part of a final project in heat transfer. One of the most innovated designs used banana peels, not sure if it would rot though.

Unfortunately, when the water in the drywall flashes to steam your firearms get a not so nice gypsum salt steam bath that will severely rust the firearms even if they don't burn due to being in the fire too long. The ones I saw, the stocks had just started to char, but the everything metal was already rusted past the point of restoration. I always thought a solid concrete vault with rebar mesh in the walls/ceiling is probably the best bet for both fire and theft protection.

 

[Wa22ioR]

Yeah, pretty much what these guys have said. I was reading some forums where guys who fight fires out west routinely come across burned homes with gun safes. Almost 100% of the time the stuff inside was a loss, whether due to the fires and/or the corrosive effects of the substances that do burn around or within the safe, including the glues used. Anymore, I am mainly looking to safeguard the firearms / items from children, their friends and the determent of smash & grab burglars. I am probably going with Secure It storage containers next. Clean organization and able to accomplish what I am going after, as outlined above.

 

[DadSmith]

Make your own it might not be as pretty inside but 2 layers of 5/8" drywall is what many fire safes are using. You could get a big gun cabinet and line it yourself with better fire insulator for less money and have a better fire proofing. Or do what my uncle did he built a small area that he used fire resistant material all around and put his safes into it.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/USG-She...Tough-Firecode-X-Panels-14313211308/202263275

 

[warren5421]

There is no UL Rating for gun safes. To make a gun safe fire resistant you would need some way to either stop the inside from heating up or someway to remove heat during a fire. You can do the first if you make it thick enough. Without running numbers I would think the walls would need to be about 2'-3' thick and lined with different types of heat resistant materals with some air gaps to help stop heat transfer.

 

[Mike Maddox]

Had one of the top safes go thru a house fire 20 years ago. Total failure. Friend took the lead on dealing with the company. The sent a new vault door to go in the new house. Gun/reloading room is now completely insulated, 8 inch concrete on all 6 sides.

 

[R3COIL]

I saw a few videos from Sturdy Safes about their fire lining versus others which was pretty informative. Basically, two things matter in this situation: the temperature of the fire; and the amount of time the safe is exposed to it. I think vault type room with concrete everything is the best bet, but I suppose any safe will cook most of its contents during a full house burn; some just sooner that others.

 

[fullmetaljesus]

A buddy of mine is a fireman and has been for about 25 years. I sent him your question and this was his advice.

I've seen several burned up in house fires. Never seen a gun come out without taking damage. None have been higher end safes. The best thing you can do is limit the amount of fuel around the safe. Everyone hides them in the closet surrounded by clothes. Just makes it a big oven around and inside the safe.

 

[shibumiseeker]

I knew the contents of my "fire" safe were toast when there was a bullet hole from the inside.

 

[DadSmith]

I found this insulation online. Would this do any good if you insulated inside or would it be better around the outside of a gun safe - door for access of course. What would be best and would it do the job?

Amazon product ASIN B01BIB4R1M

 

[JettaKnight]

All this is why I built a roomy vault and put sprinkler heads around the outside.

 

[DadSmith]

All this is why I built a roomy vault and put sprinkler heads around the outside.

Good idea.

 

[WebSnyper]

Anyone have any experience with gun safes and fires? I've been doing alot of reading on it and from what I'm seeing is that most of the mfg claimed numbers are lies. From what I understand none of the safes even meet the UL marks for a fire rated safe. Just curious what others have seen. I have seen a few videos of ones that have survived fires. I'm kinda looking around at safes to see how are built etc. Seems like 99% use drywall and some use ceramic liners etc. I'd like to buy a johnson and I may but he is backed up about a year. Anyway are any of you guys firefighters or insurance adjusters. Just curious what you've seen?

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FYI, Liberty and others have fairly long waits if you want to order something vs pick whatever safe is in stock at the tractor supply showroom floor.

At least that was my experience.

I figure my safe won't protect in the case of a real serious house fire, but that wasn't the primary reason for my purchase.