minigunjake
Plinker
It's so ingrained in my mind that I grab power drills with the index finger along the frame without even thinking. I get made fun of at work because of it.
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Be sure to read this post! Beware of scammers. https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/classifieds-new-online-payment-guidelines-rules-paypal-venmo-zelle-etc.511734/
Firearms Safety Rules (from the late Col Jeff Cooper, shooter, trainer, hero)
- Thread starter melensdad
- Start date
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Just wait until you are painfully careful not to sweep anyone or yourself with the drill bit.
minigunjake
Plinker
That thought occurs to me with nail guns.
I guess that idiot Alec Baldwin never heard of these four rules of firearms safety and neither did the morons who call themselves armorers. Just simply amazing how stupid those idiots in Hollywood really are. What a waster of a human life all because some idiots did not follow basic safety rules. May that poor person who died rest in peace.
SpartanYeti
Plinker
Rules to LIVE by!!
Speaking of Alec Baldwin, open your minds folks and read this all the way through. Look when this was written with particular attention to the last sentence or two.
To those ingrained in the ways of Cooper, might there be a better way to teach safe handling of firearms?
3 Rules, not 4. Maybe just 2 rules. - Notes from KR
On several of the blogs I read, people often refer to the “4 rules of gun safety” and quote the rules defined by Jeff Cooper of Gunsite. They are All guns are always loaded! Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy! Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights...
blog.krtraining.com
...To those ingrained in the ways of Cooper, might there be a better way to teach safe handling of firearms?
3 Rules, not 4. Maybe just 2 rules. - Notes from KR
On several of the blogs I read, people often refer to the “4 rules of gun safety” and quote the rules defined by Jeff Cooper of Gunsite. They are All guns are always loaded! Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy! Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights...
"3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use"
.
Did you read the last two paragraphs of the linked blog post? I’m not sure why NRA’s Rule #3 gets so much pushback. It’s simple: If you want a gun to be ready to use keep it loaded. Otherwise, unload it. Any gun which may be accessed and used for defensive purposes (whether carried on ones person or staged in a particular location) is “ready to use” and therefore remains loaded. If a gun is to be cleaned, restored, displayed, stored long-term, etc. (i.e. not “ready to use” unload it."3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use"
.
Right, about the same as...
RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
Too many folks overthink this. If they'd spend as much time promoting and training safety as they do fussing about semantics, we'd all be better off.
A lot less excuses and a lot more ingraining of the rules. Like in the shooting sports for example.
I get where you’re coming from but there’s a big difference: NRA’s Three Rules are absolutes and CAN be taken literally. As an observer one can see and correct actions which violate these rules. Simple and direct.
Cooper’s #1 isn’t a rule at all. Only by observing and seeing if any of the other rules are broken could one determine if Cooper’s #1 is being followed. Cooper’s #2 and #4 overlap, and Cooper’s #3 mentions sights on target, not always an absolute requirement before breaking a shot (as explained in the blog post I linked to).
I like the use of “ALWAYS…” in each NRA’s Three Rules and I like their simplicity and direct nature. To each his or her own, I just happen to think simpler is better.
Cooper’s #1 isn’t a rule at all. Only by observing and seeing if any of the other rules are broken could one determine if Cooper’s #1 is being followed. Cooper’s #2 and #4 overlap, and Cooper’s #3 mentions sights on target, not always an absolute requirement before breaking a shot (as explained in the blog post I linked to).
I like the use of “ALWAYS…” in each NRA’s Three Rules and I like their simplicity and direct nature. To each his or her own, I just happen to think simpler is better.
Twangbanger
Grandmaster
- Oct 9, 2010
- 7,083
- 113
I don't intend to drive a semantic discussion going forever, but would say I prefer the original 4, if the only other choice is the "new 3" linked. I would agree that Cooper's #1 has (fortunately) probably lost some of its relevance in the modern age. But then, the "New #3" (unfortunately, in my opinion) re-introduces the kernel of the dysfunctional reasoning that led to Cooper's #1 in the first place, by reinforcing the old "Guns something-something always something-something unloaded something-something..." mindset. "Guns are always loaded" was intentionally formulated as a shocking, vibrantly-worded clause intended to sweep that old stinking-thinking into the ash-bin, in a memorable way that stimulates conversation and discussion. And now the historical crap-reasoning been officially resurrected. "Ready for use" requires as much or more explanation than Cooper's #1 did, so I don't see it as much of an improvement.
I also think the historical #4 had some value, especially the version which added "...and what is beyond it," in challenging people to re-consider what is actually a "safe" direction or backstop. Because that deserves more consideration than some people give it, and I think the single word "sure" is simply not enough clarification for some people.
I would have preferred they reinstate #4, and just completely scrap the crap that mentions the words "always" and "unloaded" in the same phrase. If you're not specifically addressing the concept of "unattended storage," then I don't think those two words belong together in a phrase in any gun safety discussion.
***(We now return you to your regularly-scheduled programming, "The difference between a magazine and a clip"...)
The reason many sees this as a “semantic discussion” is because we have been around long enough to have heard both sets of rules (and many derivatives) many times over. Most of us are set in our ways, having learned these from an early age. I respect that.
But I’m looking further down the road to answer the questions “How we teach new shooters to be as safe as possible in their gun handling? Can we do anything better based on decades of observation and experience?”.
For me, the answer is a resounding “Yes!”. I intend to teach my children and anyone else who will care to listen that a gun is a gun is a gun and should be treated as such until rendered inoperative i.e. by disassembly. That means 1) Muzzle and 2) Finger. I use these two words to correct my son‘s behavior when practicing with a Nerf gun and he will not handle a real gun until he has it down pat.
I believe by eradicating Cooper’s Rule #1 one new shooter at a time and bringing “Safe Direction, ALWAYS” to the forefront we can go a long way toward also eliminating the phrase “But I didn’t know it was loaded!” and the negligent discharge proceeding it.
But I’m looking further down the road to answer the questions “How we teach new shooters to be as safe as possible in their gun handling? Can we do anything better based on decades of observation and experience?”.
For me, the answer is a resounding “Yes!”. I intend to teach my children and anyone else who will care to listen that a gun is a gun is a gun and should be treated as such until rendered inoperative i.e. by disassembly. That means 1) Muzzle and 2) Finger. I use these two words to correct my son‘s behavior when practicing with a Nerf gun and he will not handle a real gun until he has it down pat.
I believe by eradicating Cooper’s Rule #1 one new shooter at a time and bringing “Safe Direction, ALWAYS” to the forefront we can go a long way toward also eliminating the phrase “But I didn’t know it was loaded!” and the negligent discharge proceeding it.
for lack of better wording Coopers and NRA rules can get the job done but they still are not perfect.
I use my own instruction on the 4 rules with 2 more that no one ever uses. They are not for publication (the inherent problem of writing for all readers) but my own training programs in person. I will tell you they consist of
Permission
Chamber
Muzzle
Finger
Target
Storage
One downside to The industry standard accepted rules is trying to differentiate a loaded vs unloaded gun. Another is that they are not positive instruction. Too many don’t do that’s. And finally reciting them to a class is like an open book test, you love the teacher but don’t learn the instruction.
It has been said many times about wishing we had a higher standard of firearm training instructors. Well, we don’t. We have what we have. Too many that I have seen fail my evals within the the first few minutes. No I’m not perfect but as a student of the gun forever, (no beginning or end) I am always learning, teaching and learning some more.
Many collect the money, deliver the material, buy the cheap pizza, and hand out the certs. Well, I can tell you, that ain’t working. Hasn’t worked for a long time. The majority of gun owners want shortcuts. Yes, there are a few that put in the hard work and time to get there, but not many. Many even think that if they go directly to IDPA or USPSA that is good practice for learning. Learning to compete yes, learning good handling skills, not so much. For those of you that brag about having good situational awareness, just watch fingers at most matches. Sad. I will say however that after 25 years the shooting sports are halfway there on finger calls.
I am no longer doing groups as I have went to a follow up accountability roster these days for a better result and dignity in taking tuition for education. I am most hardest on my self for I take no shortcuts to get the job done.
I doubt, given the humbling experience in shooting skills, that we will ever see a Change in higher standard education values as we do have plenty that make the grade today if only the student follows through.
See you on the range
Trapper
I use my own instruction on the 4 rules with 2 more that no one ever uses. They are not for publication (the inherent problem of writing for all readers) but my own training programs in person. I will tell you they consist of
Permission
Chamber
Muzzle
Finger
Target
Storage
One downside to The industry standard accepted rules is trying to differentiate a loaded vs unloaded gun. Another is that they are not positive instruction. Too many don’t do that’s. And finally reciting them to a class is like an open book test, you love the teacher but don’t learn the instruction.
It has been said many times about wishing we had a higher standard of firearm training instructors. Well, we don’t. We have what we have. Too many that I have seen fail my evals within the the first few minutes. No I’m not perfect but as a student of the gun forever, (no beginning or end) I am always learning, teaching and learning some more.
Many collect the money, deliver the material, buy the cheap pizza, and hand out the certs. Well, I can tell you, that ain’t working. Hasn’t worked for a long time. The majority of gun owners want shortcuts. Yes, there are a few that put in the hard work and time to get there, but not many. Many even think that if they go directly to IDPA or USPSA that is good practice for learning. Learning to compete yes, learning good handling skills, not so much. For those of you that brag about having good situational awareness, just watch fingers at most matches. Sad. I will say however that after 25 years the shooting sports are halfway there on finger calls.
I am no longer doing groups as I have went to a follow up accountability roster these days for a better result and dignity in taking tuition for education. I am most hardest on my self for I take no shortcuts to get the job done.
I doubt, given the humbling experience in shooting skills, that we will ever see a Change in higher standard education values as we do have plenty that make the grade today if only the student follows through.
See you on the range
Trapper
One of the biggest problems, outside of Alec Baldwin's not following the 4 Rules of Gun Safety, was that the armorer was letting support staff members take the SA revolver outside and shoot with it between sets. And, it was both the armorer's job, as well as Baldwin's, to double-check the revolver between sets to ensure it was properly prepared for use on a movie set. The armorer and Baldwin should both go to prison for involuntary manslaughter AND then add a few years for the Act of Basic Stupidity!
One of the biggest and best things can do to ensure firearm safety in following the 4 Rules of Firearm Safety is to take the time to do it correctly the first time and every time thereafter! Getting in a hurry or being in a rush, is never a good practice when using a firearm.
Cooper's rules are an excellent distillation of the most important key concepts even if the wording could be improved. One could maybe get away with 3, but Cooper's 4th adds a lot. I think I've seen up to 14 rules in one list (ouch).
That said, "The rules" are intended to be brief statements that anchor concepts in people's minds. They don't function optimally without commentary, examples, and discussion. In my opinion, there's HUGE value in the commentary and discussion on developing the mindset of how people apply the principles as they live with firearms in all contexts. Teaching a block on Cooper's rules can easily run an hour (and done correctly, it isn't a boring hour).
I've been advocating for a 5th rule for a while. I'm not quite set on the wording of it, but something like, "Maintain control of your firearm at all times," isn't far off. This includes things like holsters with proper retention, secure storage when not "in use"*, and retention techniques (ex. retention position, defenses from gun grabs, basic tactics, etc.). I think I first heard it suggested by Glen Stilson of Independence Training.
There's lots of life context involved.
* - defensive firearms are by definition "in use."
That said, "The rules" are intended to be brief statements that anchor concepts in people's minds. They don't function optimally without commentary, examples, and discussion. In my opinion, there's HUGE value in the commentary and discussion on developing the mindset of how people apply the principles as they live with firearms in all contexts. Teaching a block on Cooper's rules can easily run an hour (and done correctly, it isn't a boring hour).
I've been advocating for a 5th rule for a while. I'm not quite set on the wording of it, but something like, "Maintain control of your firearm at all times," isn't far off. This includes things like holsters with proper retention, secure storage when not "in use"*, and retention techniques (ex. retention position, defenses from gun grabs, basic tactics, etc.). I think I first heard it suggested by Glen Stilson of Independence Training.
There's lots of life context involved.
* - defensive firearms are by definition "in use."
Last edited:
I'll never forget the first firearms safety class I took, (Utah carry permit.)
The instructor seemed so odd at explaining how he had to view a pistol in a crowded gun shop, while strictly following the four rules. He spoke of very carefull deliberate movements, with the muzzle direction never breaking the rules. It seemed crazy compared to what I had seen and practiced prior.
I had not taken the rules seriously, prior to that moment. The four rules were just something you said.
At that same time, I was just getting into the shooting sports. You don't get away with four rule violations there. I learned that quickly, the hard way.
.
The instructor seemed so odd at explaining how he had to view a pistol in a crowded gun shop, while strictly following the four rules. He spoke of very carefull deliberate movements, with the muzzle direction never breaking the rules. It seemed crazy compared to what I had seen and practiced prior.
I had not taken the rules seriously, prior to that moment. The four rules were just something you said.
At that same time, I was just getting into the shooting sports. You don't get away with four rule violations there. I learned that quickly, the hard way.
.
I'll never forget the first firearms safety class I took, (Utah carry permit.)
The instructor seemed so odd at explaining how he had to view a pistol in a crowded gun shop, while strictly following the four rules. He spoke of very carefull deliberate movements, with the muzzle direction never breaking the rules. It seemed crazy compared to what I had seen and practiced prior.
I had not taken the rules seriously, prior to that moment. The four rules were just something you said.
At that same time, I was just getting into the shooting sports. You don't get away with four rule violations there. I learned that quickly, the hard way.
.
Please explain to me how to violate Cooper’s Rule Number One during a competition? How do you get DQ’d for breaking this rule?
Have I ever told anyone here how much I love rekindling this debate?
blog.krtraining.com
Have I ever told anyone here how much I love rekindling this debate?
3 Rules, not 4. Maybe just 2 rules. - Notes from KR
On several of the blogs I read, people often refer to the “4 rules of gun safety” and quote the rules defined by Jeff Cooper of Gunsite. They are All guns are always loaded! Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy! Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights...
blog.krtraining.com
Hot range or cold range?Please explain to me how to violate Cooper’s Rule Number One during a competition? How do you get DQ’d for breaking this rule?
Have I ever told anyone here how much I love rekindling this debate?
3 Rules, not 4. Maybe just 2 rules. - Notes from KR
On several of the blogs I read, people often refer to the “4 rules of gun safety” and quote the rules defined by Jeff Cooper of Gunsite. They are All guns are always loaded! Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy! Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights...
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