Finger inside trigger guard

[Tanfodude]

This is still happening and more of them lately while watching competitors run to a position to engage an array. Hell, some do it while clearing a malfunction. Is it really that hard to get the finger out in those situations? When I started 5 years ago, this was a priority to learn.

 

[marvin02]

Uh, sounds like an RO problem.

 

[fullmetaljesus]

This is still happening and more of them lately while watching competitors run to a position to engage an array. Hell, some do it while clearing a malfunction. Is it really that hard to get the finger out in those situations? When I started 5 years ago, this was a priority to learn.

This may be a surprise to you but people can be careless.

That being said I do enjoy videos on YouTube of shooting competition fail videos.

 

[maxwelhse]

This may be a surprise to you but people can be careless.

That being said I do enjoy videos on YouTube of shooting competition fail videos.

(Some language in there, as you may expect...)

 

[Trapper Jim]

Yep. Finger is the number one violation across the board. It is hard for an RO to catch sometimes especially when he has the same bad habit. Quite simply this is a case of good training vs good learning.

If you were a caveman and saw a gun lying on the counter, it is intuitive to pick it up by picking it up by putting your finger in the trigger guard. It seem natural to many gun owners who have not learned proper gun handling. This is often copied by students watching a classroom trainer mishandling the famous blue gun for 8 hours in a stuffy classroom with left over pizza on the counter.

The breakdown in training is not that we don’t cover the materials but there is no follow up on if the message got learned and put into practice forever. Most trainers, get paid, deliver the material and never see the student again. Now, I get it, the responsibility of learning the material is with the student. However, understanding Human Behavior is a key to good teaching. Many trainers have a long list of firearm accomplishments but lack in understanding how to really accomplish good learning.

This assume that the wanna be shooter has even taken any training, let alone learned anything from his self taught style.

As far as the shooting sports, the hard working folks that run our matches day in and day out are not supported very well by the squad. He can’t see everything all the time. There needs to be more support for the RO. After all, the finger rule, is a rule for a reason. And just like many laws, the enforcement is lacking.

Many on the squad, are loading mags which with mag loader devices keeps the shooters head down concentrating on his loading gadget. Many are talking or attention is elsewhere. Few are really observing the current shooter or if they are, do not know what they are looking at.

In ‘84, Chapman taught me to keep my eyes up, ears open, and head on a swivel and try to find good gun habits. They are fewer to find than bad gun habits.

Shooting sports have not allowed video yet, but when they do, the reveal will surprise a few of you.

 

[Grelber]

Would be interesting to talk to officers about their training, a friend was on the Evansville swat team and discussed the importance of knowing the folks coming through the door behind you with weapons in hand had good muzzle and finger control - but I neglected to ask him about how their training accomplished this.

Have read where one shooter noted that he put a piece of skateboard tape where he wanted his finger tip to be while moving with the gun.

Side issue. My guess is that the cop who shot Ashli Babbitt was completely surprised when his gun went off - would need a better video than I've seen to prove or disprove but I think he had his finger inside the trigger guard and the gun went bang when he swung it toward her.

 

[Diesel24v]

I agree this happens more than it should, but as an RO it is hard to make the call because the rules (particularly 8.5.1) leave a gray area that the competitor can and will argue against and win. If it's during a reload it's cut and dry but any other time it is not. If you call it on movement the competitor can and will argue that they were "aiming" at a target and no one can really argue it unless there really aren't any targets to aim at. As the sport gets more fast paced this will continue to get worse. The way some of these courses of fire are setup you could potentially always have your finger on the trigger unless reloading. I watched this a lot on the stage that we just worked at the Illinois sectional but the competitors were always aiming at a target.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Would be interesting to talk to officers about their training, a friend was on the Evansville swat team and discussed the importance of knowing the folks coming through the door behind you with weapons in hand had good muzzle and finger control - but I neglected to ask him about how their training accomplished this.

Repetition, then repetition under stress, then more repetition until it is executed subconsciously. Same reason I hit the phantom decocker on a Glock after working with Sig TDAs for so long. Decocking after coming off target became subconscious, the fact Glock doesn't have such a lever there was irrelevant to that part of my brain. I wouldn't do it now, most likely, because I've been back to Glock for so long.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Repetition, then repetition under stress, then more repetition until it is executed subconsciously. Same reason I hit the phantom decocker on a Glock after working with Sig TDAs for so long. Decocking after coming off target became subconscious, the fact Glock doesn't have such a lever there was irrelevant to that part of my brain. I wouldn't do it now, most likely, because I've been back to Glock for so long.

Yes and even with years of shooting, training and burning finger in my brain, it can still happen. 4 or 5 years ago while taking a course from a fellow trainer, I launched one during a reload. A big rookie mistake. So if we are honest, we need to know it can happen to any of us.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Yes and even with years of shooting, training and burning finger in my brain, it can still happen. 4 or 5 years ago while taking a course from a fellow trainer, I launched one during a reload. A big rookie mistake. So if we are honest, we need to know it can happen to any of us.

Of course. None of us are zero defect. I think I've made that point in other places in regards to too light triggers on carry guns, the need for redundancy in safety when appendix carrying, etc.

 

[Tanfodude]

I agree this happens more than it should, but as an RO it is hard to make the call because the rules (particularly 8.5.1) leave a gray area that the competitor can and will argue against and win. If it's during a reload it's cut and dry but any other time it is not. If you call it on movement the competitor can and will argue that they were "aiming" at a target and no one can really argue it unless there really aren't any targets to aim at. As the sport gets more fast paced this will continue to get worse. The way some of these courses of fire are setup you could potentially always have your finger on the trigger unless reloading. I watched this a lot on the stage that we just worked at the Illinois sectional but the competitors were always aiming at a target.

I have seen this finger issue at Buckeye blast, KY sectional, Ryan Rocks, and at Illinois, and they were definitely not aiming at a target. I just SMH.

 

[blkrifle]

I have seen this finger issue at Buckeye blast, KY sectional, Ryan Rocks, and at Illinois, and they were definitely not aiming at a target. I just SMH.

You shot all them matches this year? I thought you had quit. Been so long since seeing you

 

[Tanfodude]

You shot all them matches this year? I thought you had quit. Been so long since seeing you

Yeah, spent my energy on those, missing locals so I can focus on getting my strength back. Endurance and strength got better but not the shooting. LOL.

 

[BoltThrower]

Shooting sports have not allowed video yet, but when they do, the reveal will surprise a few of you.

What shooting sports won't let you film? I've headcammed matches and there's always someone having someone film his/her run in a squad.

 

[Diesel24v]

What shooting sports won't let you film? I've headcammed matches and there's always someone having someone film his/her run in a squad.

You can't use video for evidence proving or disproving a call that was made or not made. I believe that is what he was meaning.

 

[Trapper Jim]

What shooting sports won't let you film? I've headcammed matches and there's always someone having someone film his/her run in a squad.

Official replay film not used in the shooting sports.

 

[Diesel24v]

I have seen this finger issue at Buckeye blast, KY sectional, Ryan Rocks, and at Illinois, and they were definitely not aiming at a target. I just SMH.

Was it to the point where if you were the RO that you would make the call? The term "aiming" is a pretty loose term as a guy could claim he is "aiming" at a target through the wall. I do this and as soon as the target is visible I am breaking a shot and I cannot do that without my finger inside the trigger guard.

I do understand that there are guys out there that are just flat unsafe a lot of the time but like I said I feel as an RO that it is a hard call to make with the current rule wording.

 

[Tanfodude]

Was it to the point where if you were the RO that you would make the call? The term "aiming" is a pretty loose term as a guy could claim he is "aiming" at a target through the wall. I do this and as soon as the target is visible I am breaking a shot and I cannot do that without my finger inside the trigger guard.

I do understand that there are guys out there that are just flat unsafe a lot of the time but like I said I feel as an RO that it is a hard call to make with the current rule wording.

It's mostly running a whole wall or more with the gun at chest level. It's easy to see it when looking at the side to where the shooter is running to on stages that have side to side movement. Plus, I'm just sitting there looking, chilling, so I can see it.

 

[downrange72]

You usually start this crap in the winter. You need to be busier

 

[Tanfodude]

You usually start this crap in the winter. You need to be busier

It's already the 'Ber' months and playing Christmas music already.