Felony charge to carry if not 23 YO next March?

[manifest destiny]

As pointed out, private party sales are ok for 18 year olds. It's also not always a straw purchase to buy a gun for someone else. If you are buying it as a gift to give someone else, that's not a straw purchase. A straw purchase is person A gives Person B the money to buy a gun for Person A. Person B can use their own money to purchase a gun to gift to Person A with no issues. You can also lend guns, so I could just let my son borrow one of my handguns until he's 21, etc.

I thought the question on the form "is this purchase for someone else" (or however it's worded) must be answered NO??

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I thought the question on the form "is this purchase for someone else" (or however it's worded) must be answered NO??

"Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form" is the question. You are the actual buyer if you are buying it to gift to someone.

Think of it like this:

A) You are going to McDonalds and I give you $2 and ask you to buy me a cup of coffee while you are there. You are doing the transaction on my behalf, I'm the actual buyer.

B) You go to McDonalds and think, "man, that BBI guy sure could use a coffee" and you buy it with your money but the intent to give it to me. You are the actual buyer.


Scenario A is a straw purchase. Scenario B is a gift.

 

[maxwelhse]

Max, stealing this for my next seminar. DNA or free!

Just let me know which Colt you're sending to my FFL as a royalty payment...

 

[maxwelhse]

"Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form" is the question. You are the actual buyer if you are buying it to gift to someone.

Think of it like this:

A) You are going to McDonalds and I give you $2 and ask you to buy me a cup of coffee while you are there. You are doing the transaction on my behalf, I'm the actual buyer.

B) You go to McDonalds and think, "man, that BBI guy sure could use a coffee" and you buy it with your money but the intent to give it to me. You are the actual buyer.


Scenario A is a straw purchase. Scenario B is a gift.

We all know you're right, but I'd be pretty willing to bet that at least 75% of gun shops wouldn't sell you the gun if you told them it was a gift for someone else. Legal or not, it just sounds like ATF sting bait. Obviously the right move is to shut up about that scenario, but that's part of why the laws are ridiculous.

The right answer to all questions on the 4473 is "I'm an American. Hand me my gun, now. THX, BFF."

 

[BehindBlueI's]

We all know you're right, but I'd be pretty willing to bet that at least 75% of gun shops wouldn't sell you the gun if you told them it was a gift for someone else. Legal or not, it just sounds like ATF sting bait. Obviously the right move is to shut up about that scenario, but that's part of why the laws are ridiculous.

The right answer to all questions on the 4473 is "I'm an American. Hand me my gun, now. THX, BFF."

It's spelled out in the instructions part of the form:

Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, a person is the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is purchasing the firearm for him/herself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for him/herself. (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn, retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). A person is also the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is legitimately purchasing the firearm as a bona fide gift for a third party. A gift is not bona fide if another person offered or gave the person completing this form money, service(s), or item(s) of value to acquire the firearm for him/her, or if the other person is prohibited by law from receiving or possessing the firearm.

 

[maxwelhse]

It's spelled out in the instructions part of the form:

Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, a person is the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is purchasing the firearm for him/herself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for him/herself. (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn, retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). A person is also the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is legitimately purchasing the firearm as a bona fide gift for a third party. A gift is not bona fide if another person offered or gave the person completing this form money, service(s), or item(s) of value to acquire the firearm for him/her, or if the other person is prohibited by law from receiving or possessing the firearm.

Did the form change or have I always been stupid? I would swear I've never seen that before.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Did the form change or have I always been stupid? I would swear I've never seen that before.

You've probably never had a reason to read the instructions and just paid attention the first page and the next to the point you sign.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-nh/page/file/1245526/download

You can see after the part the customer fills out there is a part for the FFL to fill out, then the instructions/definitions stuff. You wouldn't have any reason to read that, generally.

 

[JEBland]

You can see after the part the customer fills out there is a part for the FFL to fill out, then the instructions/definitions stuff. You wouldn't have any reason to read that, generally.

This seems like something FFL's should point out, especially if the customer isn't a regular. Granted, most folks probably wouldn't read it, but it would be good to be told explicitly.

 

[maxwelhse]

You've probably never had a reason to read the instructions and just paid attention the first page and the next to the point you sign.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-nh/page/file/1245526/download

You can see after the part the customer fills out there is a part for the FFL to fill out, then the instructions/definitions stuff. You wouldn't have any reason to read that, generally.

Agreed. I've probably always been stupid. That's way on down the line.

This seems like something FFL's should point out, especially if the customer isn't a regular. Granted, most folks probably wouldn't read it, but it would be good to be told explicitly.

Every FFL I've ever been to, at most, just says to read the form carefully. I believe they're afraid of being accused of coaching people on how to pass a check if they say much more than that.

I completely confess, as I just said to BBI, that I guess I've never even bothered to "carefully read" the form.

---

I still maintain my 4473 was filled out at birth.

 

[JEBland]

Every FFL I've ever been to, at most, just says to read the form carefully. I believe they're afraid of being accused of coaching people on how to pass a check if they say much more than that.

I completely confess, as I just said to BBI, that I guess I've never even bothered to "carefully read" the form.

I guess I wouldn't think to look at the form as carefully after the signature portion where we stop filling stuff out. I might've looked at it more carefully when making my initial purchases as a fresh IN-resident. Also seems slippery from the ATF to put the definitions at the end as opposed to being with the relevant questions. I've read the forms carefully, but I've never purchased a gun as a gift, so I guess I've not had to look at that too closely. I have seen an FFL tell a pair of parents that it's kindof a gray area issue and just to bring their kid in to do the paperwork.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

That's how all federal forms are, including taxes. Fill out pages at the front, reference material in the back (unless it's complicated enough to get it's own booklet).

 

[maxwelhse]

That's how all federal forms are, including taxes. Fill out pages at the front, reference material in the back (unless it's complicated enough to get it's own booklet).

Dang man... I already said I was stupid twice!

I never even thought about it before, but you're right again.

The more I think about it, I bet the only time I read that form in totality was the first time. I was probably so nervous thinking there were ATF agents out in the bushes waiting to drag me to prison for checking the wrong box that nothing I read stuck anyhow. It wouldn't be for many more years that I learned that not only is that not true, but even when they catch people they don't do anything about it.

I'm glad I piped up and exhibited my stupidity here. Lots of good info coming from it.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

We all know you're right, but I'd be pretty willing to bet that at least 75% of gun shops wouldn't sell you the gun if you told them it was a gift for someone else. Legal or not, it just sounds like ATF sting bait. Obviously the right move is to shut up about that scenario, but that's part of why the laws are ridiculous.

The right answer to all questions on the 4473 is "I'm an American. Hand me my gun, now. THX, BFF."

That has not been my experience and I have purchased many firearms as gifts for family. The FFLs openly talk about what cool gifts they are because, 1) they are cool, 2) there is nothing illegal about using MY money to buy my myriad of nephews guns.

If you are worried about straw purchases, ask yourself this threshold question, "whose money am I using?"

Josiah Freeman, age 12, with YugoM48 from greatest uncle ever:

 

[maxwelhse]

That has not been my experience and I have purchased many firearms as gifts for family. The FFLs openly talk about what cool gifts they are because, 1) they are cool, 2) there is nothing illegal about using MY money to buy my myriad of nephews guns.

View attachment 155017

BBI already straightened me out here. You just picking on the slow kid, now?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Ah, good . . . *hands on hips* . . . well, my work is done here.

 

[Hatin Since 87]

THX, BFF."

Care to translate this to “Man” for me?

 

[Hatin Since 87]

Did the form change or have I always been stupid?

 

[maxwelhse]

Care to translate this to “Man” for me?

 

[KellyinAvon]

That has not been my experience and I have purchased many firearms as gifts for family. The FFLs openly talk about what cool gifts they are because, 1) they are cool, 2) there is nothing illegal about using MY money to buy my myriad of nephews guns.

If you are worried about straw purchases, ask yourself this threshold question, "whose money am I using?"

Josiah Freeman, age 12, with YugoM48 from greatest uncle ever:


View attachment 155017

You are making the rest of us uncles look bad.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

You are making the rest of us uncles look bad.

Some of you are NOT sending G3s to nephews, and you are all wrong!