Felons and muzzleloaders

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  • Kirk Freeman

    Grandmaster
    Mar 9, 2008
    47,970
    113
    Lafayette, Indiana
    Think of 2 parallel railroad tracks. Track 1, Federal; Track 2, State.

    Federal: does not regulate muzzleloaders. "Title 0". Legal for felons to buy, sell, possess.

    State: prohibits ALL firearms, even muzzleloaders, IF SVF or Domestic Battery conviction(s). (Indiana's prohibitions are narrower, but deeper--ALL firearms).

    Threshold question: WHAT IS THE CONVICTION?
     

    2A_Tom

    Crotchety old member!
    Site Supporter
    Sep 27, 2010
    25,979
    113
    NWI
    What is SVF?

    Never mind, Serious Violent popped in my head as I hit post.

    That is the way it should be for all firearms.

    Embezzlers are probably no more predilected to violence than you or me.
     

    ECS686

    Master
    Dec 9, 2017
    1,705
    113
    Brazil
    If it uses #11 or so percussion caps yes it's fine for a felon. If it utilizes shotgun primers thats a big NEGATIVE. Shotgun primers are the same as possession of Ammo to the ATF when it comes to felons and they can be charged.

    And a felon is a felon in their eyes. Like trying to say they're only a little bit pregnant. It don't exist
     

    Brian's Surplus

    Expert
    Site Supporter
    Industry Partner
    Jul 18, 2016
    862
    93
    Howard County
    Is it legal in the state of Indiana for a felon to own black powder for hunting or self defense?
    My understanding is that it is legal for a felon to possess a muzzleloader, however, it cannot be loaded. It is also legal for a felon to possess an "antique firearm" (pre-1898) as it is exempted from the definition of firearm. Felons CANNOT posses ammunition.
    As I understand it, a felon might be able to get off the hook for possession in certain circumstances with some money and a good attorney IF there is no ammunition or gunpowder present. That really makes the initial question a moot point, since the only defense you would be able to achieve would be better served with a baseball bat.
    I am however not an attorney, so this is more of an opinion than fact. Kirk's answer is probably more accurate.
    Technically, under the 2nd Amendment a felon should be able to possess any type of weapon. If they can't be trusted with a firearm, why were they released?
     

    HoughMade

    Grandmaster
    Oct 24, 2012
    35,615
    149
    Valparaiso
    ...Technically, under the 2nd Amendment a felon should be able to possess any type of weapon...

    Before I came to this conclusion, I would have to know the history of how felons in possession of weapons were treated under the law at the time the 2nd Amendment was proposed and ratified and any discussion thereof.
     

    indiucky

    Grandmaster
    Before I came to this conclusion, I would have to know the history of how felons in possession of weapons were treated under the law at the time the 2nd Amendment was proposed and ratified and any discussion thereof.


    Blackbeard_10-58d3fc3f5f9b584683587a00.jpg


    Blackbeard still got his.......They killed him however....
     

    HoughMade

    Grandmaster
    Oct 24, 2012
    35,615
    149
    Valparaiso
    Good point?

    Anyhoo, I say I would have to know the historical context because I what the "right to keep and bear arms" encompassed at that time defines what that right is today. We could be like the left and just have courts declare that times have changed and redefine rights based on current mores, OR we could look at what the rights protected in the Constitution were viewed as encompassing when they were deemed worthy of protection in the Constitution. One method renders the Constitution open to constant change through judicial fiat, the other renders the Constitution open to change only through the Constitutionally defined amendment process.

    If we start arguing for a definition of Constitutional rights without tying that argument to historical context, we are doing the same thing as the left...and we might as well just white-out the amendment process and let judges with life appointments rule us as oligarchs....openly.
     

    indiucky

    Grandmaster
    If we start arguing for a definition of Constitutional rights without tying that argument to historical context, we are doing the same thing as the left...and we might as well just white-out the amendment process and let judges with life appointments rule us as oligarchs....openly.

    Very true...I spent a lot of time studying that period in history....Self educated but very in depth...Days at the SAR and Filson Club in Louisville...My library of 18th century first person accounts is one of the best around...I'm just nerdy about that time period...I have never seen anything that would indicate criminals could not legally have guns at the time of the Constitutional Convention...Based on the Federalist Papers, Thomas Jefferson's Note's, and various journals I have read that it was just assumed outlaws would have guns....And that citizens would have them as well...If they caught someone stealing a horse, white, black, or red, that person was hanged by the neck...No mention made of whether they possessed a firearm...They expected they would possess one...Horse thievery (heck just living back then, especially around here) was a dangerous occupation...

    "One hand on the plow, one hand on the rifle" was a common expression in Kentucky and Southern Indiana until about 1816 or so....


    IMHO
     

    2A_Tom

    Crotchety old member!
    Site Supporter
    Sep 27, 2010
    25,979
    113
    NWI
    Before I came to this conclusion, I would have to know the history of how felons in possession of weapons were treated under the law at the time the 2nd Amendment was proposed and ratified and any discussion thereof.

    The Founder's Second Amendment Stephen P Halbrook

    This book covers this question well. The founders believed that felons should be denied their Second Amendments right. I do believe that felonies did not encompass what they do today.
     

    HoughMade

    Grandmaster
    Oct 24, 2012
    35,615
    149
    Valparaiso
    Very true...I spent a lot of time studying that period in history....Self educated but very in depth...Days at the SAR and Filson Club in Louisville...My library of 18th century first person accounts is one of the best around...I'm just nerdy about that time period...I have never seen anything that would indicate criminals could not legally have guns at the time of the Constitutional Convention...Based on the Federalist Papers, Thomas Jefferson's Note's, and various journals I have read that it was just assumed outlaws would have guns....And that citizens would have them as well...If they caught someone stealing a horse, white, black, or red, that person was hanged by the neck...No mention made of whether they possessed a firearm...They expected they would possess one...Horse thievery (heck just living back then, especially around here) was a dangerous occupation...

    "One hand on the plow, one hand on the rifle" was a common expression in Kentucky and Southern Indiana until about 1816 or so....


    IMHO

    Good info. Now we’re getting somewhere.
     

    HoughMade

    Grandmaster
    Oct 24, 2012
    35,615
    149
    Valparaiso

    The Founder's Second Amendment Stephen P Halbrook

    This book covers this question well. The founders believed that felons should be denied their Second Amendments right. I do believe that felonies did not encompass what they do today.

    More good info. I will have to look at that.
     

    Kirk Freeman

    Grandmaster
    Mar 9, 2008
    47,970
    113
    Lafayette, Indiana
    If it uses #11 or so percussion caps yes it's fine for a felon. If it utilizes shotgun primers thats a big NEGATIVE. Shotgun primers are the same as possession of Ammo to the ATF when it comes to felons and they can be charged.

    And a felon is a felon in their eyes. Like trying to say they're only a little bit pregnant. It don't exist

    Again, no. If you are SVF in Indiana, then no firearms of any sort, regardless of the priming device it uses.

    Serious Violent Felon=NO guns, no guns whatsoever.
     

    DadSmith

    Grandmaster
    Oct 21, 2018
    22,200
    113
    Ripley County
    Open this up again.

    We forgot back in the days they wrote the constitution there were over 200 criminal acts that got you shot or hung. How many criminal acts do we have today that would get you the death penalty?

    A majority of what we call felons would be 6' under if it was in the late 1700' or early 1800's.
     
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