Elvis

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm sorry just for clarification, are you suggesting im a racist?

I think it's fairly common and acceptable to lable music to suggest the culture tied to it.

At that time, the black culture that created that music was not the culture of mainstream Elvis fans. The most you can credit him is with bringing a new culture to the mainstream.

Or am I just doubling down here on a racist line of thought? (Serious question)

"Black" is not a culture, and neither is white. Both encompass a wide variety of cultures and ideas. Common or not, the labels of black or white music is inherently racist. Using the labels innocently because they are common use does not make one racist, but the concept itself can only be considered racist once properly examined. It's lazy racism, not racism with malice. Is Jamaican music "black music"? Is Eminem? Nina Simone trained as a classical pianist. Did she therefore appropriate "white music"? If a white person listens to black music, is that ok? In the 90s there was a definite derogatory term for it. What about a black person listening to white music? Why is it white music? Do classical violinists and hillbilly stringband fiddlers really share a culture connection any more closely than a blues singer and a rock singer?

Elvis did not simply lift a culure and deposit it in front of new people and get acclaim. That's a gross oversimplification. He created a new culture to fans. He, along with his team, took a basic idea and built on it. Black performers of the time were not doing his...choreography, and without that sexualizing of the performance nobody would have heard of Elvis. Apperances and marketing matter in an entertainer, and remember the time was when televisions being common place in homes was still new, and much like social media today that changed the landscape. Susan Boyle is a great singer with a beautiful voice but has a face that can stop a clock and a figure suitable for a potato. She can't sex up a performance. She is not someone young girls aspire to emmulate. No matter how much producer pumped her up and how much exposure she got, she only had a low to middling career in the days of social media driven hype because of that.


Elvis was a sensation, and not all of that is because of WHO he was, but also WHEN he was. A photogenic and sexy performer willing to push boundaries in a time that was primed to be receptive to exactly that. But not just an outsider or boundary pusher. An "aw shucks kid" made good who was a big star but willing to do his time in the military when he was drafted, a perfect combination of respectability and wholesomeness mixed with sexiness and youth appeal that he had fans from all demographics. That's why Hollywood snatched him for some 4 dozen-ish moves, and that's why he's The King.

 

[tmcindy]

I've actually read many times Elvis was a pretty nice guy. Treated his fans really well.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Common or not, the labels of black or white music is inherently racist. Using the labels innocently because they are common use does not make one racist, but the concept itself can only be considered racist once properly examined.

I'm not sure I agree with this BBI. We've all heard the term "Negro Spirituals" to describe a genre of gospel songs that had their roots with the slaves in early America. Is that "racist"? It seemed to be unique to that group of people. In fact much of what became "the blues" had its roots in those songs. I don't see that as racist. I see that as historical. As another example, much of what we consider "bluegrass" music had its roots in Irish folk music and immigrants. I don't think that's racist either.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm not sure I agree with this BBI. We've all heard the term "Negro Spirituals" to describe a genre of gospel songs that had their roots with the slaves in early America. Is that "racist"? It seemed to be unique to that group of people. In fact much of what became "the blues" had its roots in those songs. I don't see that as racist. I see that as historical. As another example, much of what we consider "bluegrass" music had its roots in Irish folk music and immigrants. I don't think that's racist either.

Aside from the rhetorical questions I asked in the post you quoted, let me add:

Is 'black music' a genre?
Is 'white music' a genre?

Can you define either, and do so in a way without overlap in both directions.

The difference between such a broad overreaching term to try and pigeonhole multiple genres as belonging to one race or another vs terms with specific definable meanings would seem self-evident to me.

 

[Ziggidy]

To actually see/hear musicians being just that is sorely missed. One of the absolute best shows I ever saw was CTA (Chicago Transit Authority) live in a small venue in Ohio doing their 1st 2 albums live. They tore the house down. Live.
They are just "Chicago" now. And I am old school. Obviously.

CTA - Love them.

I think it was in mid 70's I saw them play with the Beach Boys in Chicago.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I've actually read many times Elvis was a pretty nice guy. Treated his fans really well.

Elvis was a hillbilly made good. Loved cops and guns, had a temper and liked to shoot things to show his displeasure with them on occasion, but took care of his friends and fans. Took care of his momma and his buddies. His image was pretty carefully managed, but even with that he seemed like a pretty good dude for someone who suddenly found themselves rich and famous from nothing.

 

[Ziggidy]

"Black" is not a culture, and neither is white. Both encompass a wide variety of cultures and ideas. Common or not, the labels of black or white music is inherently racist. Using the labels innocently because they are common use does not make one racist, but the concept itself can only be considered racist once properly examined. It's lazy racism, not racism with malice. Is Jamaican music "black music"? Is Eminem? Nina Simone trained as a classical pianist. Did she therefore appropriate "white music"? If a white person listens to black music, is that ok? In the 90s there was a definite derogatory term for it. What about a black person listening to white music? Why is it white music? Do classical violinists and hillbilly stringband fiddlers really share a culture connection any more closely than a blues singer and a rock singer?

Not sure if you know this or not, but it is Black Music Appreciation Month! I first heard on a commercial advertising the when, where and who for the concert of celebration.

We have Black History Month, Black Music Appreciation Month and the Black Music Awards. ???? Can you explain all this? There is so much more associated with music and history. Polish, Italian, Russian and let's not forget the 14 different styles of African music.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Aside from the rhetorical questions I asked in the post you quoted, let me add:

Is 'black music' a genre?
Is 'white music' a genre?

Can you define either, and do so in a way without overlap in both directions.

The difference between such a broad overreaching term to try and pigeonhole multiple genres as belonging to one race or another vs terms with specific definable meanings would seem self-evident to me.

You're thinking in 2022 terms. Just like I think it is wrong to tear down Civil War era statues, I think it's just as wrong to not acknowledge the history of the types of music we're talking about and how they have evolved, and why.

As for separating "black music/culture" from other music/cultures, that's being done already and not by the "other" cultures.

Friday Night Vibes

Friday Night Vibes™ is a movie destination that spotlights feel-good comedies, action-packed blockbusters and culturally significant storytelling inclusive of diverse voices. Viewers can get the weekend started right with tbs and a mix of comedy, celebrity interviews and musical performances...

www.tbs.com

 

[Ingomike]

In a Nashvilie tour of CMHOF the guide said Elvis would call the studio and schedule to record at like 2pm and not show up until hours later. The whole crew was just cooling their heels waiting on him. Typical reaction was what a prima donna. He did it so the record label had to pay the crew giving them extra money for his sessions. His way of helping his little guy friends…

 

[fullmetaljesus]

"Black" is not a culture, and neither is white. Both encompass a wide variety of cultures and ideas. Common or not, the labels of black or white music is inherently racist. Using the labels innocently because they are common use does not make one racist, but the concept itself can only be considered racist once properly examined. It's lazy racism, not racism with malice. Is Jamaican music "black music"? Is Eminem? Nina Simone trained as a classical pianist. Did she therefore appropriate "white music"? If a white person listens to black music, is that ok? In the 90s there was a definite derogatory term for it. What about a black person listening to white music? Why is it white music? Do classical violinists and hillbilly stringband fiddlers really share a culture connection any more closely than a blues singer and a rock singer?

Elvis did not simply lift a culure and deposit it in front of new people and get acclaim. That's a gross oversimplification. He created a new culture to fans. He, along with his team, took a basic idea and built on it. Black performers of the time were not doing his...choreography, and without that sexualizing of the performance nobody would have heard of Elvis. Apperances and marketing matter in an entertainer, and remember the time was when televisions being common place in homes was still new, and much like social media today that changed the landscape. Susan Boyle is a great singer with a beautiful voice but has a face that can stop a clock and a figure suitable for a potato. She can't sex up a performance. She is not someone young girls aspire to emmulate. No matter how much producer pumped her up and how much exposure she got, she only had a low to middling career in the days of social media driven hype because of that.


Elvis was a sensation, and not all of that is because of WHO he was, but also WHEN he was. A photogenic and sexy performer willing to push boundaries in a time that was primed to be receptive to exactly that. But not just an outsider or boundary pusher. An "aw shucks kid" made good who was a big star but willing to do his time in the military when he was drafted, a perfect combination of respectability and wholesomeness mixed with sexiness and youth appeal that he had fans from all demographics. That's why Hollywood snatched him for some 4 dozen-ish moves, and that's why he's The King.

You know, when you frame it in that light. I could see how what I said could come off as racist. In my attempt to make my thoughts simple, I ended up saying something I did not intend.

My apologies to all for my short sighted comments I hope it's understood I meant no offense or to disparage anyone other than Elvis.

I'll be more careful with my wording in the future.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

You're thinking in 2022 terms. Just like I think it is wrong to tear down Civil War era statues, I think it's just as wrong to not acknowledge the history of the types of music we're talking about and how they have evolved, and why.

As for separating "black music/culture" from other music/cultures, that's being done already and not by the "other" cultures.

Friday Night Vibes

Friday Night Vibes™ is a movie destination that spotlights feel-good comedies, action-packed blockbusters and culturally significant storytelling inclusive of diverse voices. Viewers can get the weekend started right with tbs and a mix of comedy, celebrity interviews and musical performances...

www.tbs.com

You're having a different conversation, which is evident as you've not addressed a single question I asked nor a point I made. Nobody has suggested you can't acknowledge where musical influences come from nor give credit to originators of trends, etc.

I'm sure you understand "this group does it too" is not really an argument. I'd also suggest there's yet another self-evident difference between "black music" and "a collection of music by black artists" or "a genre of music invented by black artists in a given decade". Easy differences to spot should you simply work through the rhetorical questions I've posed. I've laid out my position and reasoning as best I can or am willing to, so I'll move along.

 

[churchmouse]

Ok peoples lets just step away from the keys for a moment and regroup please.

Thanks so much.

 

[BigRed]

The early years of Elvis were the best....just my opinion.

He had some decent covers.

 

[BigRed]

And another covered by Elvis.

 

[BigRed]

And another....

 

[BigRed]

He was not a songwriter. He was a cover artist...with a good voice and decent basic rythm knowledge of a guitar.....He didn't suck like Michael Bolton does and had better marketing.

 

[Ingomike]

He didn't suck like Michael Bolton does and had better marketing.

Not as good of marketing as Milli Vanilli…

 

[BigRed]

Another cover he did well..

 

[BigRed]

His gospel music was strong...

 

[Brad69]

What about the sandwiches?

You wanna hear about crazy Jerry Lee Lewis was/is insane!