Eliminating 19 Classifiers

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  • CB45

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    I don't like how this was done, I don't like the lack of communication about it and I can tell you that the home office was not in the loop on this decision either.

    Don't know if you have realized this or not but this one rule and eliminating these classifiers also means that future classifiers will either have to be 6 rounds or less or 9 rounds or more.

    It was a bad decision, and it appears it was pushed thru by the committee chair person on this. They should have left them and let the HHF sort themselves out in Revolver

    I think round counts of 13,14,15,16 could be unfair too... better throw those out too!
     

    midget

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    Haha. I did that a couple times for practice when I first got my open gun... got the MD's approval to shoot it for no score ...
    you should have seen the looks on people's faces when I finished .... haha... "WTF was THAT?!"

    -rvb


    I'm thinking we should do this at one of the ACPDL matches :)
     

    midget

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    I am still confused as to why this wasn't brought up at the time of the BOD votes... Did someone have a last minute "Oh **** we forgot" moment?
     

    smith52

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    I am still confused as to why this wasn't brought up at the time of the BOD votes... Did someone have a last minute "Oh **** we forgot" moment?

    That is the really bad part about it, that was the question asked by numerous USPSA members back when they were asking for member feed back. I never received a single reply from Phil, Amidon, or any of the AD's I emailed regarding this subject. So it was a known concern just seems no one making the decision seemed to care.
     

    Coach

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    Had they left them in and left the HHF alone for 2 years the only thing that could happen would be that some guy with his 8 shot revolver is a grand bagger. Who cares? So Bob goes out buys a new 8 shot gun and is a GM 3 weeks later. Good for him. What is the harm to the sport or the rest of us shooting the other guns?

    Some people are just stupid.

    Was this Flexmoney's fault Jake?
     

    Bosshoss

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    I didn't want to see the classifiers dropped BUT it was the easiest thing to do. Several revolver shooters, including myself offered suggestions of other ways to fix the classifier issue but it seems no one cared and they went the easiest way.
    I do feel something needed done as the classifiers that were dropped were a huge advantage to the 8 shots. Why does anyone but a few revolver shooters care? Well on some of the "other" forums it was brought up that it would wreck the classifier system. Seeing as how I don't have very many revolver shooters at local matches to shoot against I like the classification system to track my progress. It is not perfect by any means, as some classifiers the HHF is way too high and some it is too low but it averages out OK. The thing is before everyone was shooting similar equipment and now some have a huge advantage on these classifiers. Keep in mind that these classifiers are part of the whole match score. So not only would a 6 shot be screwed on the classifier but the classifier score would affect their match results.
    I have said before that with some of the classifiers that were dropped a C class revolver shooter shooting a classifier match with the right classifiers could EASILY make GM. I would bet that a A class shooter that has NEVER shot a revolver before could also make GM. I have even had a couple of shooters at a match last fall ask to borrow my 8 shot gun and shoot some classifiers with it. This was after hearing me make the above statement. These were good shooters in their division but they didn't want to shoot revolver they wanted a easy way to make GM. Make GM in revolver and you are instantly M in all other divisions.
    I have heard several people on this and other forums say the classifier system is screwed up so much that it is useless.
    Yet I have seen those same shooters reshoot classifiers to better their score and classification:dunno:. I have also seen their names on the results from shooting a classifier match. Why shoot a classifier match if you aren't trying to improve your classification? Yes I know some shoot a different division at classifier matches to get classified and some shoot them as part of a points series. But I have seen several times that shooter shoot a classifier match in their regular division. If the system is broke and useless why does everyone still try to improve their classification?
    The classifier system is still VERY important for new shooter as they see where they stand and can track their improvements.
    I know revolver is the smallest division but it is important to those of us that love to shoot a revolver. Everyone worries about their division and forgets about the others. I know I don't worry or care about whether or not a production shooter has his holster a half inch to far forward or not or a limited or open shooter has magazines that are a half millimeter too long.

    Sorry for the rant.

    BTW Ryan I have NEVER heard a serious revolver shooter say the wished for a revolver neutral match.
    Hummmm can we even use the term revolver neutral anymore now that 8 shots are legal:):.
     

    Bosshoss

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    Had they left them in and left the HHF alone for 2 years the only thing that could happen would be that some guy with his 8 shot revolver is a grand bagger. Who cares?
    I guess I care as I spent hundreds of hours practicing to get where I'm at and I guess I like to whine when someone gets a easy button.



    So Bob goes out buys a new 8 shot gun and is a GM 3 weeks later. Good for him. What is the harm to the sport or the rest of us shooting the other guns?
    So someone buys a revolver and makes GM and now has a M card in all the other classifications without any of the work.
    If this doesn't harm the sport or the rest of the shooters shooting the other guns why is everyone upset that a few classifiers were dropped? I mean it doesn't harm those shooting other guns does it?
    Some people are just stupid.

    Was this Flexmoney's fault Jake?

    :dunno:
     

    rvb

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    "Revo neutral" (6-shot) is what the classifiers have become. If they had just bumped the hhfs, then everything would have been fine, only, as I said above, the revo classifiers would then be rating both gear and shooter....... Which I think reflects the new match reality. Of course, then people would have been complaining about people using 6-shooters to sandbag....

    If the classification system does one thing perfectly, it's getting people to complain about it....

    -rvb
     

    Coach

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    Anyone who has skill has gotten there through work. There is no easy button to GM. No C class shooter is going to make GM in Revolver with an 8 shot. Someone actually does make GM in revolver and is Master in all others what does that get them. Their ass kicked in every major for the rest of their life. They will get what they deserve. I think the problem is in your logic. The concern you expressed is that someone is going to get something without working or without working as hard as we have to work. The rules should exist to make the playing field fair and consistent not to make sure that everyone has to put in the proper amount of work or effort. We all have different skills and that means we have to do different amount of work to get the same place. I try to worry about me and not about the other guy. I have no control over him and I don't want to have control over him. Live and let live. I like individual freedom.

    I was not blaming the revolver shooters before but I think I am going to now. Whoever pushed this 8 shot thing has made a mess. Make a change for/in the smallest division and screw it all up. I have usually one revolver shooter at my match a month and he has been shooting Production for a year. But now there are 19 classifiers not available for the match of 35 to 60 people. That is what we call Bull****.
     

    rvb

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    I try to worry about me and not about the other guy.

    amen, hallelujah.

    rant:
    sandbaggers, grandbaggers... whatever. I get tired of hearing about it.
    So many people want the classifier system to be perfect (note, I'm not necessarily talking about folks in this thread, this is a 'global rant'), and expect it to match up perfectly to match results, etc. You know what, let's cancel the major matches, and just do it like a big postal match... once per year we'll take a snapshot of the classifier database and award a national champion and state champion and rankings based on that. It was meant to group folks into blocks of similar skill levels so more folks could get prizes/trophies. If that matters to you, then do what you need to do to get the prizes.

    I was not blaming the revolver shooters before but I think I am going to now. .... That is what we call Bull****.

    I'll even go so far as to partly blame myself and other non-revo shooters, too. I saw the proposed 8-round rule change and thought "meh, doesn't affect me." They only revolver-related change that stood out to me is suddenly we have to use special range commands for revos now, which I think is lame... and that was the only revolver-related change I expressed my opinion on to the BoD. I didn't give it the attention I should have or follow the threads on it on the other forums, etc. The revo guys in this thread are saying they were aware of this problem during the comment period... I wasn't aware of it until it after the classifiers were pulled. Perhaps if more of us had paid closer attention and demanded answers to how these situations would have been solved during the comment period, we wouldn't have the ripple of unintended consequences.

    -rvb
     
    Last edited:

    jakemartens

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    I'll even go so far as to partly blame myself and other non-revo shooters, too. I saw the proposed 8-round rule change and thought "meh, doesn't affect me." They only revolver-related change that stood out to me is suddenly we have to use special range commands for revos now, which I think is lame... and that was the only revolver-related change I expressed my opinion on to the BoD. I didn't give it the attention I should have or follow the threads on it on the other forums, etc. Perhaps if more of us had paid closer attention and demanded answers to how these situations would have been solved during the comment period, we wouldn't have the ripple of unintended consequences.

    -rvb

    Very true, I didn't pay any attention to it either.
    And when I said Flex pushed it, I meant the elimination of the 19 classifiers, not revolver minor, he voted no on allowing revolver minor, but was the committee chair on reviewing the classifiers. And as it was explained to me the committee of AD's were not in agreement on eliminating them, but Kyle pushed forward with it and it was approved by Phil without the agreement of everyone on the committee.
    So I am guessing (but this is based on past experience) his FU back to allowing 8 round minor was to push eliminating the classifiers and sit back and say I told you so.
     

    Coach

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    8 shot minor revolver should have changed nothing except in Revolver. If a new gun is going to make that much difference then it should have been obvious to those making the decision. If we allowed 9mm major in Limited it would make every Limited Gun currently being used obsolete. Looks like this is what was done in Revolver. Good or bad, right or wrong it was done and the impact should stay in the revolver division.
     
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