[DGU] The 'Defensive Gun Use' Thread

[actaeon277]

ASK THE SHERIFF: How does a person make a citizen's arrest?

DEAR SHERIFF: Can you describe the process for making a citizen’s arrest?

www.goshennews.com

In addition to arrest, the proper use of force must be considered for the action to be legal and to avoid undue liability by the citizen. Indiana Code IC 35-41-3-3 says in part: “A person other than a law enforcement officer is justified in using reasonable force against another person to effect an arrest or prevent the other person’s escape if a felony has been committed and there is probable cause to believe the other person committed that felony. However, such a person is not justified in using deadly force unless that force is justified under [IC 35-41-3-2] …”

IC 35-41-3-2 states in part, “… A person is justified in using reasonable force against any other person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force …”

 

[jamil]

ASK THE SHERIFF: How does a person make a citizen's arrest?

DEAR SHERIFF: Can you describe the process for making a citizen’s arrest?

www.goshennews.com

In addition to arrest, the proper use of force must be considered for the action to be legal and to avoid undue liability by the citizen. Indiana Code IC 35-41-3-3 says in part: “A person other than a law enforcement officer is justified in using reasonable force against another person to effect an arrest or prevent the other person’s escape if a felony has been committed and there is probable cause to believe the other person committed that felony. However, such a person is not justified in using deadly force unless that force is justified under [IC 35-41-3-2] …”

IC 35-41-3-2 states in part, “… A person is justified in using reasonable force against any other person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force …”

That seems to clear it up.

 

[actaeon277]

I would like to mention, I am quoting things about INDIANA law.

And the case mentioned was in GEORGIA.

 

[wcd]

Damn, he doesn't need counceling, he needs range time and the determination to shoot the hammer wielding SOB before he gets within hammer range. He got three rounds off and didn't stop the perp, that couple is lucky to be alive. The dude was either off his meds or on some he shouldn't have been on...or just bug nuts crazy.

Wondering if he had the mindset that this was not actually happening?

Hammer can be a deadly weapon so why wouldn’t he taking defensive action before perp got that close to he and his wife?

lastly was there any mention of caliber used?

 

[Alamo]

Damn, he doesn't need counceling, he needs range time and the determination to shoot the hammer wielding SOB before he gets within hammer range. He got three rounds off and didn't stop the perp, that couple is lucky to be alive. The dude was either off his meds or on some he shouldn't have been on...or just bug nuts crazy.

Wondering if he had the mindset that this was not actually happening?

Hammer can be a deadly weapon so why wouldn’t he taking defensive action before perp got that close to he and his wife?

lastly was there any mention of caliber used?

He doesn't need range time, he needs in-your-face-hands-on-personal combatives time. Or maybe stay in the bedroom, lock the door, and call the cops. Handguns are not great weapons at bad-breath distance, easier to deflect/disarm than, say, a knife. And you can't assume that you always get distance and notice before someone is in your face. Yes he knew there was a suspicious noise, but still he was confronting someone in the house, close quarters, rooms probably not much bigger than 10x12 with furniture in them... not a wide open shooting range. Even tho he is in his own house, he still has the disadvantage of legally and morally being required to identify his target before shooting, and to decide that shooting is required, which builds in a non-zero amount of delay. So very easy for bad guy to jump him before he can shoot.

I have spent some bit of time training in room clearing, both as the hunter and hunted, and I was always more "successful" as the "hunted".

 

[Thor]

I get that point and understand...as well as am trained in it. Maybe I passed that over because I assume it up front.

Then again, legally and morally required to ID someone in your freaking house who shouldn't be...I think the ID is already done.

 

[2A_Tom]

Never ass u me anything.

100,000,000 gun owners.
10,000,000 for personal defense.
10,000 have training.

 

[dudley0]

I get that point and understand...as well as am trained in it. Maybe I passed that over because I assume it up front.

Then again, legally and morally required to ID someone in your freaking house who shouldn't be...I think the ID is already done.

My ID sequence is I yell HEY KID. No answer or odd voice and it's on. Both my kids know that they need to make it clear they are headed here because reasons. I would give a yell out on the off chance that they forgot.

 

[2A_Tom]

I know it is not a DGU, but it IS heartwarming.

 

[chipbennett]

Not looking to diminish the good deed done, and the marine deserves kudos, but it seems (from the video) that the marine drew on an unarmed guy. The guy was no apparent threat to the marine, even if he was a recent threat to someone else. I'm sure I don't know the whole story but couldn't this (technically) be taken as the marine threatening the life of the suspect? Of course, no charges filed, but it seems that this could have gone horribly wrong, and didn't the marine break the law? And what right would the perp have to defend himself against a gun-wielding citizen?

I am asking because I can imagine the situation must happen often where someone yells "he just stole my purse", and then what can you do (legally) to help the person whose purse was stolen?

Perhaps you should consider the difference between, "he stole my purse!" and "he just raped me!" - particularly in light of most use of deadly force statutes including forcible felony in the list of justifiable uses of deadly force in self-defense of self or others.

 

[chipbennett]

But hadn't the felony (rape) already happened? And the marine is also relying on someone's word that it has occurred, I don't think he witnessed anything.

If the offender hadn't yet escaped, then the crime was still in the act of commission. At least, that would be my layman's take on it, particularly if serving on a jury.

 

[Alamo]

Then again, legally and morally required to ID someone in your freaking house who shouldn't be...I think the ID is already done.

"who shouldn't be.."

But how do you know the person you are shooting shouldn't be there? You have to make some kind of identification. That it's not your wife, your dad, your son, an EMS or police officer who lawfully entered? Just the fact that someone broke in, or you think someone broke in, does not automatically somebody else in house legally and morally eligible to be shot. You don't have to check driver's license, but you do need to consciously decide what is going on.

 

[Alamo]

Witnesses: Man who killed Arkansas woman lured out neighbors (yahoo.com)

Arkansas

Nutzoid apartment dweller starts yelling for people to come out of apartments. One older lady does so, finds out he's armed, runs back into her apartment but doesn't get door closed. Nutzoid follows her in and shoots her several times, killing her. Nutzoid goes back outside and resumes yelling for people to come out, presumably so he can kill them too. A neighber gets his hunting rifle out and shoots nutzoid, killing him, and likely preventing a mass murder event.

 

[actaeon277]

Witnesses: Man who killed Arkansas woman lured out neighbors (yahoo.com)

Arkansas

Nutzoid apartment dweller starts yelling for people to come out of apartments. One older lady does so, finds out he's armed, runs back into her apartment but doesn't get door closed. Nutzoid follows her in and shoots her several times, killing her. Nutzoid goes back outside and resumes yelling for people to come out, presumably so he can kill them too. A neighber gets his hunting rifle out and shoots nutzoid, killing him, and likely preventing a mass murder event.

And for some reason, this isn't all over the news cycle.
(Purple)

 

[Alamo]

Miami, Florida

Jewish family harassed in Miami area, get help from gun owner: reports | Fox News
Police investigating report of disturbing anti-Semitic incident in South Florida | WPEC (cbs12.com)

Man, wife, and daughter leave synagogue on foot. Men driving by shout "Free Palestine!," "Die Jew!" "F-- you Jew," and "I’m gonna rape your wife" and throw garbage. Man puts family behind him. Another man in car behind the thugs gets out with gun and positions himself between thugs and family. Thugs recall important appointment across town and depart.

 

[Thor]

"who shouldn't be.."

But how do you know the person you are shooting shouldn't be there? You have to make some kind of identification. That it's not your wife, your dad, your son, an EMS or police officer who lawfully entered? Just the fact that someone broke in, or you think someone broke in, does not automatically somebody else in house legally and morally eligible to be shot. You don't have to check driver's license, but you do need to consciously decide what is going on.

"who shouldn't be..." implies identification of person.

 

[Thor]

Miami, Florida

Jewish family harassed in Miami area, get help from gun owner: reports | Fox News
Police investigating report of disturbing anti-Semitic incident in South Florida | WPEC (cbs12.com)

Man, wife, and daughter leave synagogue on foot. Men driving by shout "Free Palestine!," "Die Jew!" "F-- you Jew," and "I’m gonna rape your wife" and throw garbage. Man puts family behind him. Another man in car behind the thugs gets out with gun and positions himself between thugs and family. Thugs recall important appointment across town and depart.

Another use of a firearm that won't be reported.

 

[Thor]

Not looking to diminish the good deed done, and the marine deserves kudos, but it seems (from the video) that the marine drew on an unarmed guy. The guy was no apparent threat to the marine, even if he was a recent threat to someone else. I'm sure I don't know the whole story but couldn't this (technically) be taken as the marine threatening the life of the suspect? Of course, no charges filed, but it seems that this could have gone horribly wrong, and didn't the marine break the law? And what right would the perp have to defend himself against a gun-wielding citizen?

I am asking because I can imagine the situation must happen often where someone yells "he just stole my purse", and then what can you do (legally) to help the person whose purse was stolen?

If you are waiting for the Grand Jury to decide you will never do a good deed.

 

[Alamo]

"who shouldn't be..." implies identification of person.

Exactly my point. You are morally and legally obligated to id the threat before you start shooting.

 

[Thor]

Exactly my point. You are morally and legally obligated to id the threat before you start shooting.

Well, I don't want to shoot my spousal unit or children (MIL we can talk about) so the IDing is critical but they all know the rules. And a family that shoots together has interlocking fields of fire.