Democrats want to Legalize Marijuana

BehindBlueI's

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Every new law has unforeseen second and third order effects. Can't get people to work now. Wait till they legalize dope and see what happens.

Everybody I've known who smoked had a job, with the exception of two retirees. I doubt a significant amount of people who want to smoke have not done so because of legal status.
 

jamil

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You are delusional. Both of you.
Well, everyone is at least a little delusional on one thing or other. But I’d like to know what specific delusion you’ve identified in the post you quoted. Maybe we can talk about that when your timeout is over, if you have the courage to come back and have a reasonable conversation.
 

jamil

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What would be so bad about it being legalized? Too many people have criminal charges on their record just for having a small amount of pot on them. What horrible thing would they do after smoking it? Eat pizza and play with their dog?
I don’t see anything any more wrong with legalizing mj than there was legalizing alcohol after its prohibition. I’d rather people choose not to use either. But it’s only a choice I can make for myself.

People still choose to smoke weed even though it’s illegal. Keeping it illegal only creates a reason to lock people up.
 

Blackhawk2001

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Do you know that he isnt driving? Or does it allow him to drive since his body actually functions properly? Should he be arrested for driving with a debilitating disease if he doesnt take 14 pharma pills daily?
You are correct; I don't know he isn't driving. But MY wife has Parkinson's and she hasn't been able to drive for years; of the people in her Parkinson's therapy group, NONE of them were driving, so you may understand my assumption.
 

Blackhawk2001

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I suppose the mild aversion I have to MJ legalization is due to the DUI issue and the fact that I've always been told it's a "gateway" to harder drugs - at least for some folks. Seems that many folks who've been willing to talk about their MJ use have also talked about using various other "recreational drugs" as well.

My other issue is with "legalized" prostitution. In the vast majority of cases, as far as I can tell, prostitution - the institution - is "someone" taking advantage of another's: poverty, weakness, addiction, helplessness, fear of pain. It's immoral on many levels and, as abortion - whether it's legal or not - is mainly the taking of an innocent life for someone else's convenience, so is prostitution the business of taking advantage of sex for profit, generally at the expense of the subjugation of the prostitute by someone or something.

Both are, IMO, immoral and it's never a good thing to legalize immorality. I'm not prepared to condemn anyone for having a different belief, and, other than my statement, I'm not prepared to rigorously argue against someone who believes I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that the Founders of our nation believed that the system of government they envisioned when they wrote the Constitution was only workable when the People - the society - had a firm moral grounding.

For all of my lifetime we've been legalizing or "normalizing" things that in earlier times were considered "immoral" and the problems we're having societally with drugs and violence seem to be a product of the erosion of our societal sense of morality.
 

BehindBlueI's

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My other issue is with "legalized" prostitution. In the vast majority of cases, as far as I can tell, prostitution - the institution - is "someone" taking advantage of another's: poverty, weakness, addiction, helplessness, fear of pain. It's immoral on many levels and, as abortion - whether it's legal or not - is mainly the taking of an innocent life for someone else's convenience, so is prostitution the business of taking advantage of sex for profit, generally at the expense of the subjugation of the prostitute by someone or something.


I don't think making prostitution illegal did much, either. As you say, many of them are forced in to it and the majority who aren't are at a point in their lives that it being illegal isn't even in their decision making process. Spain legalized prostitution but kept it illegal to have pimps, trying to address the concerns of women forced in to it. After decades of legalized prostitution they've seen that pimps continue to dominate the marketplace and human trafficking has been a huge problem. There were anti-prostitution advertisements on the sides of busses in some cities, and the current debate about re-criminalizing it was on the news while we where there.

It's not an easy thing to get numbers on, and of course pimping and human trafficking occur in countries where it remains illegal but it appears that relatively low punishments for human trafficking and legalized prostitution has made human trafficking worse. One could argue that increased punishment for human traffickers may work, but I think like drug dealing when there is so much money to be made it's a difficult thing to stop.
 

Blackhawk2001

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I don't think making prostitution illegal did much, either. As you say, many of them are forced in to it and the majority who aren't are at a point in their lives that it being illegal isn't even in their decision making process. Spain legalized prostitution but kept it illegal to have pimps, trying to address the concerns of women forced in to it. After decades of legalized prostitution they've seen that pimps continue to dominate the marketplace and human trafficking has been a huge problem. There were anti-prostitution advertisements on the sides of busses in some cities, and the current debate about re-criminalizing it was on the news while we where there.

It's not an easy thing to get numbers on, and of course pimping and human trafficking occur in countries where it remains illegal but it appears that relatively low punishments for human trafficking and legalized prostitution has made human trafficking worse. One could argue that increased punishment for human traffickers may work, but I think like drug dealing when there is so much money to be made it's a difficult thing to stop.
I don't disagree with you at all; I just think it's a bad thing on many levels to say: "we can't eradicate it, even though it's immoral, so we'll normalize/legalize it and make money for the state." And I lean towards normalizing the behavior being a worse outcome than raising taxes for the state, which will then be misused, as most taxes are misused.
 

kickbacked

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I suppose the mild aversion I have to MJ legalization is due to the DUI issue and the fact that I've always been told it's a "gateway" to harder drugs - at least for some folks. Seems that many folks who've been willing to talk about their MJ use have also talked about using various other "recreational drugs" as well.

My other issue is with "legalized" prostitution. In the vast majority of cases, as far as I can tell, prostitution - the institution - is "someone" taking advantage of another's: poverty, weakness, addiction, helplessness, fear of pain. It's immoral on many levels and, as abortion - whether it's legal or not - is mainly the taking of an innocent life for someone else's convenience, so is prostitution the business of taking advantage of sex for profit, generally at the expense of the subjugation of the prostitute by someone or something.

Both are, IMO, immoral and it's never a good thing to legalize immorality. I'm not prepared to condemn anyone for having a different belief, and, other than my statement, I'm not prepared to rigorously argue against someone who believes I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that the Founders of our nation believed that the system of government they envisioned when they wrote the Constitution was only workable when the People - the society - had a firm moral grounding.

For all of my lifetime we've been legalizing or "normalizing" things that in earlier times were considered "immoral" and the problems we're having societally with drugs and violence seem to be a product of the erosion of our societal sense of morality.
you could decriminalize the act. That way the girls/guys who are being sold around the country in sexual slavery arent treated as criminals, maybe can get help and dont have a criminal record following them around the rest of their life.
 

Prowler1

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It's the Pharms that are opposed. A whole lot of information out there about the benefits of cannabis components. As for the
recreation part I hope the perps that attempt to pass the legislation realize how many people's lives they are going to destroy.
Does that mean a reduced tax burden for the rest of us who do not partake?
 

Blackhawk2001

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you could decriminalize the act. That way the girls/guys who are being sold around the country in sexual slavery arent treated as criminals, maybe can get help and dont have a criminal record following them around the rest of their life.
As I said, I'm opposed to the immorality of the act business, and I don't think normalizing it by legalizing it is helpful to society as a whole.
 

BehindBlueI's

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I don't disagree with you at all; I just think it's a bad thing on many levels to say: "we can't eradicate it, even though it's immoral, so we'll normalize/legalize it and make money for the state." And I lean towards normalizing the behavior being a worse outcome than raising taxes for the state, which will then be misused, as most taxes are misused.

I don't think the state was making any money off it if you mean prostitution. There were no licenses or anything. It was just a realization that prostitutes are generally more victim than criminal and arresting them isn't going to change anything.

MJ, I'd rather the gov't made money than the cartels did, especially since once it's legal that means real businesses doing real business things...like getting sued for lung cancer like tobacco companies did. These illegal markets are using infrastructure just like legal businesses are, leaving them underground just means they avoid helping pay for that infrastructure.
 

Blackhawk2001

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I don't think the state was making any money off it if you mean prostitution. There were no licenses or anything. It was just a realization that prostitutes are generally more victim than criminal and arresting them isn't going to change anything.

MJ, I'd rather the gov't made money than the cartels did, especially since once it's legal that means real businesses doing real business things...like getting sued for lung cancer like tobacco companies did. These illegal markets are using infrastructure just like legal businesses are, leaving them underground just means they avoid helping pay for that infrastructure.
Once again, I understand the arguments, although if prostitution were legalized, it would more likely be to increase state tax revenues, rather than for any other reason.

And, as I said, I oppose both normalizing marijuana and prostitution primarily because they both promote immorality and we don't need to normalize immorality any faster than we're already doing it.
 

jamil

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I don't disagree with you at all; I just think it's a bad thing on many levels to say: "we can't eradicate it, even though it's immoral, so we'll normalize/legalize it and make money for the state." And I lean towards normalizing the behavior being a worse outcome than raising taxes for the state, which will then be misused, as most taxes are misused.
I think because of human trafficking the prostitution issue is different from drug legalization. But I’d note that making prostitution illegal, hasn’t stopped human trafficking.

But back to drugs, and the morality aspect, to whatever extent using mj is immoral, is it really any more immoral than using alcohol? Alcohol is more socially acceptable because it has a much wider historical use. But is the justification for using either all that different? Is the outcome of using either really all that different?

I don’t know that one can really make an objective moral case for or against one and not for or against the other. An objective moral case would look something like it’s use by one individual deterministically causes harm to one or more other individuals. You can arguably make that case for some of the harder drugs like meth. But I don’t see much difference between alcohol and mj, in moral terms.
 

Blackhawk2001

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I think because of human trafficking the prostitution issue is different from drug legalization. But I’d note that making prostitution illegal, hasn’t stopped human trafficking.

But back to drugs, and the morality aspect, to whatever extent using mj is immoral, is it really any more immoral than using alcohol? Alcohol is more socially acceptable because it has a much wider historical use. But is the justification for using either all that different? Is the outcome of using either really all that different?

I don’t know that one can really make an objective moral case for or against one and not for or against the other. An objective moral case would look something like it’s use by one individual deterministically causes harm to one or more other individuals. You can arguably make that case for some of the harder drugs like meth. But I don’t see much difference between alcohol and mj, in moral terms.
As I said before, I've read that, at least for some people, marijuana use leads to searching out stronger drugs. I don't know if there is a precise analog to alcohol use; as the son and grandson of alcoholics, I never noticed that either my father or grandfather sought out "stronger" experiences, but that's anecdotal.

I'm certain I can't describe an "objective morality" and I'm not certain what an objective morality would look like. Certainly it can be argued that both alcohol and marijuana use can lead to harm to others; it demonstrably does in domestic violence and DUIs.
 

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