Court rejects qualified immunity for officer who arrested man with valid carry permit

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  • rooster

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    Title says it. Big win for right to carry, hopefully this sets precedent moving forward.

    this situation is exactly my nightmare scenario especially traveling interstate. I’m doing everything right but end up in lockup because Barney decided to make the law up as he went along.

    paywall warning use incognito:

     

    Leo

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    The east coast must troll for out of state drivers.

    It was not long ago I heard a man got in trouble for some empty shotgun hulls rolling around in his trunk. I knew high power shooter that had problems at the airport for an empty 7mm-08 rifle brass in a side pocket of his duffel bag. I was escorted to airport security over a sterling silver and turquoise slide on a bolo tie that was shaped like an arrow head that I refused to give up. Things have gotten ridiculous.

    Once I left Illinois, I had to cross Illinois often. For Texas, I could take a different route, but for Kansas city, it was kind of stuck.

    After meeting a man that had to find out the hard way I took his advice. I carried a copy of the Illinois statute of peaceable transport of firearms, including the legal conditions to be observed. If the officer did not know, I could show it and he could call it in. I never needed it, but figured it was good preventative planning.

    With the internet available on most phones, I am surprised that on the spot checking of laws does not prevent this
     
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    femurphy77

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    major snippage

    With the internet available on most phones, I am surprised that on the spot checking of laws does not prevent this
    Back in my younger days I may have had one or two interactions with the local consatbulary over a misunderstanding or some such. Anyway when attempting to "enlighten" them I heard on more than one occasion "we'll let the judge figure it out".

    I'm guessing that thought process is still alive and well.
     

    Timjoebillybob

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    The east coast must troll for out of state drivers.

    It was not long ago I heard a man got in trouble for some empty shotgun hulls rolling around in his trunk. I knew high power shooter that had problems at the airport for an empty 7mm-08 rifle brass in a side pocket of his duffel bag. I was escorted to airport security over a sterling silver and turquoise slide on a bolo tie that was shaped like an arrow head that I refused to give up. Things have gotten ridiculous.

    Once I left Illinois, I had to cross Illinois often. For Texas, I could take a different route, but for Kansas city, it was kind of stuck.

    After meeting a man that had to find out the hard way I took his advice. I carried a copy of the Illinois statute of peaceable transport of firearms, including the legal conditions to be observed. If the officer did not know, I could show it and he could call it in. I never needed it, but figured it was good preventative planning.

    With the internet available on most phones, I am surprised that on the spot checking of laws does not prevent this
    Not just the east coast as your comment about Ill annoy proves. I know a similar case involving fired shotgun shells that happened in DC the guy had a couple in his cupholder and the cop saw them. Since (I can't remember which) the guy was a DC resident but didn't own a shotgun or he wasn't a DC resident and therefor wasn't allowed to have ammo at all in the district he was arrested and charged. Can't remember if he was convicted or not.

    For the guy with the rifle brass in the duffle bag, that will get you questioned at least in most airports everywhere in the states. Your bolo slide maybe, maybe not, there was a Medal of Honor recipient who's medal they were trying to confiscate when he went through screening at the airport. It had "sharp edges", finally a supervisor came who recognized what it was. Oh he's was not only a MoH recipient, he was also a former Governor, retired General, former NRA president...

    I was a stopped in IL on a trip back from KC coming from my GM in law's funeral. Driving a U-haul, and I don't exactly look clean cut, doing 5 under the limit, at about 2 am, on US 57, heading towards chitcago. Oh and I had 2 handguns with loaded magazines with(not in) them in a duffle bag on the seat next to me. I was in a convoy with two other cars one being driven by my MiL who pulled in behind the cop car when he pulled me over. When he told her to pull around front and here's the best part he asked if there were any guns or drugs in the truck she told him "Well he carries one on his hip..." It was an interesting but generally uneventful stop.
     

    BigRed

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    1,000 yards out

    "big win" in a ****hole state.

    By all means, let us be cuffed to these ********... you know, save the union and all that ********.
     

    churchmouse

    I still care....Really
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    3 months after 9/11 we were traveling to the Virgin Islands. The TSA was not formed up all the way yet and it was chaotic at best. Armed military in battle gear roamed the airports.
    we had all but cleared to board when an overly aggressive female “Agent” found my folding axis pin my shaving kit. You know the ones. Truck stops have them on boards T the cash register. Had them for 15+ years in my kit. She held them up like a prized catch and proceeded to rip my ass over them to which I responded in kind. I asked ETAF I could do with those and she called them a weapon. Threw them in the container to keep and I got really pissed.
    felt a tap on my shoulder and a beret adorned fella with a beret adorned fella with an M-16 suggested I stand down and move on. Seemed the thing to do.
    I was pulled aside and searched on the Kay over.
    **** them.
     

    Timjoebillybob

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    "big win" in a ****hole state.

    By all means, let us be cuffed to these ********... you know, save the union and all that ********.
    It is a big win, although perhaps not as big as I would have liked from reading the actual opinion. And yes it stems from a case in a **** hole state. But this ruling effects more than that state it effects at least the entire 2nd circuit and possibly more. While other circuits aren't bound by it, it is somewhat common for them to take notice of and use it(The exact reverse is also common as well). Would you say Heller v DC and McDonald v chit cago are big wins? I'd say so. Would you say that both of those are **** hole places? I'd agree with that.
     

    femurphy77

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    TSA is nothing more than a "full employment act for keeping useless monkeys off the unemployable roles".
    And if you need evidence to support this statement try flying out of Miami. I almost ended driving home one vacation AFTER we'd both cleared the security theater area.

    Long story short I ended up telling two of their "supervisors" to take a long walk, so I miss my plane, so I get to spend a few more days off work, so. . . . . what! "Honey go ahead and get on the plane, I'm going to drive back. See you in a few!" They let me go "THIS TIME". :lmfao:
     

    KLB

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    3 months after 9/11 we were traveling to the Virgin Islands. The TSA was not formed up all the way yet and it was chaotic at best. Armed military in battle gear roamed the airports.
    we had all but cleared to board when an overly aggressive female “Agent” found my folding scissors in my shaving kit. You know the ones. Truck stops have them on boards at the cash register. Had them for 15+ years in my kit. She held them up like a prized catch and proceeded to rip my ass over them to which I responded in kind. I asked WTAF I could do with those and she called them a weapon. Threw them in the container to keep and I got really pissed.
    felt a tap on my shoulder and a beret adorned fella with an M-16 suggested I stand down and move on. Seemed the thing to do.
    I was pulled aside and searched on the over.
    **** them.


    I had a pair of 5" pliers confiscated at BWI in 2002. I was told I could take the plane apart with them. :rofl:
     
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    KLB

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    Remember all the stories of how the TSA would miss stuff early on?

    I was working as a contractor at Ft Sill Hospital doing a network upgrade. At the time I carried a large, like 10" wide, laptop case with lots of pockets for all the :poop: I needed when on a job.

    I had a small leatherman I carried at the time, which I apparently accidently put into one of the pockets with papers. So once we left, I couldn't find it and figured I had left in one of the network closets I had been working in.

    Fast forward 3 or 4 flights around the country. I am going through Dallas security for my second flight that day and the TSA agent asks me if I have a knife in my bag. I say no. He pulls out the leatherman and asks, "then what is this?" I say, "that's where that thing went to." It was confiscated, as I was not going to get out of line and go ship the thing to myself. That would have cost more than just buying a new one. Of course that also meant I had gone through all of those other security screenings and none of them ever saw that leatherman in my bag.
     

    Amishman44

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    The east coast must troll for out of state drivers.
    It was not long ago I heard a man got in trouble for some empty shotgun hulls rolling around in his trunk. I knew high power shooter that had problems at the airport for an empty 7mm-08 rifle brass in a side pocket of his duffel bag. I was escorted to airport security over a sterling silver and turquoise slide on a bolo tie that was shaped like an arrow head that I refused to give up. Things have gotten ridiculous.
    Once I left Illinois, I had to cross Illinois often. For Texas, I could take a different route, but for Kansas city, it was kind of stuck.
    After meeting a man that had to find out the hard way I took his advice. I carried a copy of the Illinois statute of peaceable transport of firearms, including the legal conditions to be observed. If the officer did not know, I could show it and he could call it in. I never needed it, but figured it was good preventative planning.
    With the internet available on most phones, I am surprised that on the spot checking of laws does not prevent this
    Law Enforcement Officers, by definition, are there to enforce the laws...and apprehend law-breakers!
    My experience with many LEO's is that most don't truly know or properly understand the laws they're supposed to be enforcing...whether they agree with them or not...and many go on just opinion or supposition of what the law(s) should be...both of which can be worse than the actual law(s) they are supposed to be enforcing.
    As a former volunteer EMT (24 years) state, county, and local law enforcement would occasionally stop by the firehouse and, during discussions, if you ask the same question regarding the same law to three (3) different officers, typically you would get 2-3 different responses on how it should be enforced or responded to (aka 'handled').
    The discrepancies between different law enforcement departments, the amount of actual education or training they receive, their actual experience (time on the job), etc. all shows up on the street where one officer handles in one way (hopefully maturely) and another handles it completely different (often immaturely).
    When it comes to traffic stops (as an example) I typically let them do their thing (respectfully) and the, at some point (if I have a question or concern) will ask, 'Sir (or Ma'am), may I ask a question?' When they say 'Yes!' my question then becomes a discussion rather than an argument or escalation of the situation!

    Remember:
    An argument is used to determine 'who' is right!
    A discussion is used to determine 'what' is right!
     

    rooster

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    Yes the case hinges on the arrested ID’ing himself as a valid permit holder.

    I don’t think it matters that he opened with that line so much as he identified himself with a valid ID/permit and the officer THEN used that as “probable cause” to detain/arrest/search him.

    being a law abiding citizen of with valid paperwork showing you are law abiding (or at least trying to be, some states carry laws are a little weird) should never be probable cause.
     

    Leo

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    Before 9/11 I was a field tech for industrial instrumentation. Sometimes it would be 7 flights in 5 days. Usually I would hop a plane with my brief case as a carry on. I always had a small plastic pouch of electronic tools and a Digital meter. Aspirin, hay fever meds and Tums were in another baggie. the rest was schematics, data sheets, and billing statements.

    I don't know how national field techs can possibly get their jobs done with the current state of things.
     

    Somemedic

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    United States v. Black, 707 F.3d 531, 540 (4th Cir. 2013)
    Absent any other suspicious behavior, the carrying of a firearm alone does NOT create reasonable
    suspicion for detention.
    (“Where a state permits individuals to openly carry firearms, the exercise of this right, without more, cannot justify an investigatory detention.”).
    Thus, officers stopping an individual for carrying a firearm must be able to point to additional suspect behavior that led them to believe criminal activity was afoot. There is NO Indiana statutory authority that permits an officer to stop an individual carrying a handgun solely for the purpose of verifying the existence of a valid handgun license.

    Richardson v. State
    Once a valid LTCH is produced further questions involving the weapon should cease.
     

    Timjoebillybob

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    Yes the case hinges on the arrested ID’ing himself as a valid permit holder.

    I don’t think it matters that he opened with that line so much as he identified himself with a valid ID/permit and the officer THEN used that as “probable cause” to detain/arrest/search him.

    being a law abiding citizen of with valid paperwork showing you are law abiding (or at least trying to be, some states carry laws are a little weird) should never be probable cause.
    I think it's a bit of both, I think if the officer had discovered the firearm before being given/informed of the license/permit status this case may have turned out differently. And I agree fully with your last statement.

    "But at no time did Defendant have any reasonable suspicion or actual knowledge of Plaintiff's possession of the firearm without simultaneously knowing that Plaintiff demonstrated that he had an apparently valid firearm permit. Indeed, it is undisputed that Plaintiff told Defendant that he had a pistol in the driver's side door compartment at the time he handed his driver's license and pistol permit to Defendant."
    "In the absence of any articulable reason for Defendant to believe the permit was counterfeit or otherwise invalid, there is no indication that Plaintiff was even arguably unlawfully possessing a firearm.

    In light of the uncontested fact that Plaintiff presented his pistol permit to Defendant before or at the time he disclosed that he was in possession of a pistol and the absence of any other indicia that Plaintiff was otherwise violating the statute, no reasonable officer could believe probable cause was present."
    United States v. Black, 707 F.3d 531, 540 (4th Cir. 2013)
    Absent any other suspicious behavior, the carrying of a firearm alone does NOT create reasonable
    suspicion for detention.
    (“Where a state permits individuals to openly carry firearms, the exercise of this right, without more, cannot justify an investigatory detention.”).
    Thus, officers stopping an individual for carrying a firearm must be able to point to additional suspect behavior that led them to believe criminal activity was afoot. There is NO Indiana statutory authority that permits an officer to stop an individual carrying a handgun solely for the purpose of verifying the existence of a valid handgun license.

    Richardson v. State
    Once a valid LTCH is produced further questions involving the weapon should cease.
    Yep, Black helped those in the fourth circuit. Although iirc that case hinged at least in part that unlicensed open carry was legal. It was debated repeatedly here if that applied to licensed required open carry would fall under that statute.
    And the court did cite black in this opinion. Which goes back to my earlier comment about how this case could help those in other circuits.

    And yep, Richardson was a big win for our state. ETA Pinner was another huge one for us IN folk. IMO at least as big if not bigger than Richardson.
     
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