Constitutional Carry, but no, it really isn't.

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All,
PLEASE PRINT AND/OR SHARE THIS WIDELY

1369 passed.

First the good news. If you have a LIFETIME Carry license issued before July 1 of this year, that license will be honored until you die. If you have a 5 year, it terminates at the end of the current issue period. Your State reciprocity may change, depending on other states' reactions to this change in Indiana law, but otherwise, lifetime license holders will be OK. Of course, if you lose your license, it will now be gone, forever.

Now the bad news. The specific piece of Federal law in 18 USC 922(q) that lets you carry a loaded handgun within 1000 feet of a school (roughly two blocks from the edge of school property in all directions) states "if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State,"

The current license to carry is a license to carry a handgun. The new Reciprocity License is NOT a license to carry a handgun. It is, rather, a license to carry a handgun IN OTHER STATES ACCORDING TO THOSE STATES' LAWS when actually carrying a handgun in those other states.

In other words, it is literally, by its own construction, not a valid license to carry within the state borders.

The exact language of the new license is: "A resident of this
20 state who wishes to carry a firearm in another state under a
21 reciprocity agreement entered into by this state and another state
22 may obtain an Indiana reciprocity license under this chapter"

On its face, this fails the requirements of 922(q), meaning that if you live within two blocks of a school you CANNOT leave your home property with a loaded handgun, nor can you travel within two blocks of a school with a loaded handgun.

If you live in the average Indiana small town or city, this is very bad.

Now the second bit of bad news. Despite being labeled a reciprocity license, there is no guarantee that ANY state not already having Constitutional Carry will actually accept the new Indiana license or continue to accept the old one. That includes all of our immediate neighbors. If you are a frequent cross border traveler, you will need to pay close attention to what those states say about this when it becomes law.

Finally, in the bad news category, the bill instructs local police agencies to create lists of undesirable people to be more closely monitored for firearm possession due to their legal inability to own or possess a firearm. From a civil liberties standpoint, this means the legislature has instructed LEOs to make a naughty list of their own design. That's just generally bad.

Please note, I fully support Constitutional Carry. But it has been done poorly by Indiana and is ultimately harmful to Indiana residents. If you want to examine a better means of enacting Constitutional Carry, I strongly encourage you to read Alaska's version, which retained their existing license structure mostly to address federal and reciprocity issues, while making it a voluntary upgrade to the default of Constitutional Carry.


Benjamin M. Blatt
Blatt Law Office, P.C.
Licensed in Indiana and Michigan
P.O. Box 221
South Bend, IN 46624-0221
574.360.4039
 

OneBadV8

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What's all this? Is it done since it passed the house? And I assume IL is still off limits correct?
Goes to the Senate, then Governor's desk. And if it pleases the king, he'll symbolically sign it. (corrected by Kirk, thanks!)
 
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Cameramonkey

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My head. The federal statute says firearm, not handgun. And apparently we are ignoring Lopez.

Ok . . . sigh . . . more after work and yoga.
So you are saying that choosing a lawyer based on his experience in the specific discipline is important? E.g hiring an estate planning lawyer or a family law lawyer to handle your 2A case might turn out bad? whodathunkit?
 

Kirk Freeman

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Goes to the Senate, then Governor's desk. And if it pleases the king, he'll sign it.
Please, guys, again, it does not matter if the king is pleased or not:

1. Indiana does not have pocket veto. Bills passed by both houses become law regardless of signature.

2. In Indiana a veto is symbolic and meaningless. It takes a majority, not 2/3rds to override a veto in Indiana.

I am sorry for the continual restatements of these points but it is imperative that we all are dealing with reality for this. Thank you.
 

2in1evtime

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Ok, if this is another "they're doing away with lifetime LTCH"

Friend, that's 12/10 right there.
BRAVO!
I think there is some confusion here, saying if you got a lifetime before july of this year your ok?? Then if you do the 5 year you can't get another when it expires??? need a better explanation or source for this!!!!!
 
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So you are saying that choosing a lawyer based on his experience in the specific discipline is important? E.g hiring an estate planning lawyer or a family law lawyer to handle your 2A case might turn out bad? whodathunkit?
Ben is a firearms attorney, but also does estate planning. He's done my will, my NFA trust, my POA, has won federal cases, has dealt with thousands of firearms inheritance matters.

What are Lucas' credentials again?
 
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I think there is some confusion here, saying if you got a lifetime before july of this year your ok?? Then if you do the 5 year you can't get another when it expires??? need a better explanation or source for this!!!!!
Yes. They will stop issuing CCW, since we're "constitutional." So if you have a lifetime license, it's still extant. But there will be no new ones of either kind. The law takes effect 1 July.

States that recognize licenses from other states will require a license for reciprocity. If you don't have one, no reciprocity.

A "reciprocity license," which hasn't been done in any other state, isn't a license from THIS state. It's a note that says, "Hey, if it's okay with you, it's okay with us." But it is NOT a license for the concept of "recognizing a license from another jurisdiction." Vermont suffered from this since they never issued a license. I think (welcome corrections) they fixed it by identifying their DL as an LTC.

And no license means no carry in proximity to a school. Yes, that means all firearms, but we're specifically discussing the exemption for handguns.

This bill could have been fixed with a couple of sentences, but Lucas is not versed in firearm law.
 

d.kaufman

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and have nothing to show another state that requires a license for reciprocity.
That's why you can still get either a 5 year or lifetime carry permit, or both if so inclined

I have seen nothing about LTCH going away
What law are you referring to that goes into effect on July 1st?

And by the way, Indiana does not have a CCW. It's a LTCH
 

Cameramonkey

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Yes. They will stop issuing CCW, since we're "constitutional." So if you have a lifetime license, it's still extant. But there will be no new ones of either kind. The law takes effect 1 July.

States that recognize licenses from other states will require a license for reciprocity. If you don't have one, no reciprocity.

A "reciprocity license," which hasn't been done in any other state, isn't a license from THIS state. It's a note that says, "Hey, if it's okay with you, it's okay with us." But it is NOT a license for the concept of "recognizing a license from another jurisdiction." Vermont suffered from this since they never issued a license. I think (welcome corrections) they fixed it by identifying their DL as an LTC.

And no license means no carry in proximity to a school. Yes, that means all firearms, but we're specifically discussing the exemption for handguns.

This bill could have been fixed with a couple of sentences, but Lucas is not versed in firearm law.
Show your work. LTCH will still be issued for those wanting reciprocity with other states.

EDIT: This bill just removes that as an absolute requirement to carry.
 
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Alamo

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This appears to be the bill passed by the House:
House Bill 1369 - Firearms matters - Indiana General Assembly, 2021 Session

...

I have seen nothing about LTCH going away
What law are you referring to that goes into effect on July 1st?

And by the way, Indiana does not have a CCW. It's a LTCH


From the bill at the link, it does appear that the LTCH is going away. LTCHs currently issued or applied for by 01JUL21 will still be valid until their stated expirations (5 years or death). The new reciprocity license comes into being along with most of the rest of the law on 30MAR22.

Basically, if you are 18 or over and not a prohibited person then effective 30MAR22 you can carry generally a handgun in Indiana sans any kind of license or permit.

I have no idea how that will really play out with the (minimally enforced) GFSZ Act, or if a reciprocity license will count for the "license" exception of the GFSZ Act.

I eagerly await further developments.

ETA: in practical terms the reciprocity license may look and feel and be applied for like the current LTCH, but formally it does appear that the license to carry a handgun in Indiana is being abolished, and a separate "reciprocity license" is being created.
 
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Alamo

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A "reciprocity license," which hasn't been done in any other state, isn't a license from THIS state. It's a note that says, "Hey, if it's okay with you, it's okay with us." But it is NOT a license for the concept of "recognizing a license from another jurisdiction." Vermont suffered from this since they never issued a license. I think (welcome corrections) they fixed it by identifying their DL as an LTC.
At first reading of the bill at the link I provided above, this does not appear to be true. The reciprocity license is identified by the Leg as a "license" and it appears it has the same requirements for issue as the current LTCH. It's created by the State of Indiana. So I don't see why any other state would see the current LTCH as a license but not see the reciprocity license as a license. The only substantive difference I see is that it is not required for carrying a handgun within the State of Indiana.

The problems with reciprocity crop up when the other state has a requirement for a carry license that is more restrictive than the state being considered for reciprocity. For example, some states do not allow licensing to carry for those less than 21. So that state may not recognize AT ALL a license for a state that does allow licensed carry for 18-20 year olds. Some states will recognize the same license for those 21+, but not those 18-20. But that doesn't turn on whether the issuing state calls it a permit, a license, a reciprocity license, or whatever.
 

d.kaufman

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Thanks Alamo. I'm seeing some changes from the initial bill that was proposed. I'd really like to hear Kirk's take on what this all means. Kelly could probably shed more light as well. I suck at interpreting legal speak.

Either way doesn't change the fact that at the moment, this bill has not passed into law and there is still time for changes while in the Senate I believe
 
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