CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[IndyDave1776]

Just stumbled upon this thread.

Other Calvinists here?

It generally isn't one of my top 10 theological issues, but I generally lean that way.

 

[hoosierdoc]

Indeed, Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

Do other "images of God" get to burn? Sadly, yes.

But faith without works is dead.

i am nervous there’s more to it than simple belief and grace. The servent who buried his talent was punished.


James 2:

[FONT=&amp]14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? [/FONT][FONT=&amp]15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, [/FONT][FONT=&amp]16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? [/FONT][FONT=&amp]17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.[/FONT][FONT=&amp]18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?[/FONT]
26 [FONT=&amp]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.[/FONT]

 

[deo62]

He is Risen!

 

[Knight Rider]

He is Risen!

Maybe a least we can all agree on this.

 

[ATM]

He is risen, indeed!

 

[JettaKnight]

Just stumbled upon this thread.

Other Calvinists here?

Uh, yeah!

So........ I also have just found this. Is this actually a bona fide discussion or one of INGO's bottomless rabbit holes? Are there actual.....{gasp} CHRISTIANS here? Is anyone here recognized as a reasonable and ethical bible scholar? WUT? A rational discourse between intelligent normal people? OUTRAGEOUS!!

If I could get a civil religious discussion I would have dozens of questions that I would love to get opinions on. I'm not up to going back and reading every post like I did for the WALLET thread, to find the man {men!} behind the curtain. That's time I will never get back!

Fire away. I consider myself a scholar in the sense that I study...

 

[ChristianPatriot]

Just stumbled upon this thread.

Other Calvinists here?

If there are, then they were predestined to be here so...

 

[JettaKnight]

But faith without works is dead.

i am nervous there’s more to it than simple belief and grace. The servent who buried his talent was punished.


James 2:

Your doubt is very, very common. Last year our church did a lengthy devotion on, "is it enough?"


Works comes from a place of admiration and thankfulness for the free gift. If you love Jesus, why would you not want to serve him?

If you're saying one must also do good things to be saved, then you're in essence saying Christ's death and blood isn't enough - I need to do more.


As silly as it is, this video does a good job of explaining James 2:
[video=youtube;PXuHVg9Uudw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXuHVg9Uudw[/video]

Also, one of the better, more thought provoking, short books on this is J. D. Greear's "Stop Asking Jesus Into Your Heart", which makes a point, "hey, so you 'accepted' Jesus into you heart at camp in 6th grade, then you've lived the life of a sinner... maybe you really didn't let Jesus in." In other words, you want to say you're a Christian, because Heaven sounds good, but you don't want to do what Christ asks, or let him be your master... that's what James is speaking to: people who want to say they're a Christian, but have no intent on acting like it.

Becoming a Christian doesn't make you perfect at all, but there should be a general trajectory in your life toward being Christ-like.

 

[JettaKnight]

If there are, then they were predestined to be here so...

It's bad enough to get that from T.Lex!!

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

But faith without works is dead.

i am nervous there’s more to it than simple belief and grace. The servent who buried his talent was punished.


James 2:

I like that you are "nervous" rather than doctrinal on this. Making things policy is one thing. Making things law is quite another thing. The following is what makes ME nervous!
Revelation 22:18-19 King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


Here's a thing right here. Does this gruesome warning only apply to the book it's found in {Revelation}? or does it's principle extend across the entirety of scripture? Should I be true to Revelation but feel free to run fast and loose with lets say, Genesis? Why and who says so are always required for an answer to mean anything.

About the servant who buried his talents. Wasn't that a parable that was told under the law? Before the crucifixion? Wouldn't punishing the servant AFTER Calvary have been redundant as Jesus had then paid for his sins?

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

Uh, yeah!



Fire away. I consider myself a scholar in the sense that I study...

Oh! I have dozens of questions! Let me bone up on some of them first as I haven't read the Bible in a coons age.

 

[T.Lex]

It's bad enough to get that from T.Lex!!

 

[ArcadiaGP]

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I like that you are "nervous" rather than doctrinal on this. Making things policy is one thing. Making things law is quite another thing. The following is what makes ME nervous!
Revelation 22:18-19 King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


Here's a thing right here. Does this gruesome warning only apply to the book it's found in {Revelation}? or does it's principle extend across the entirety of scripture? Should I be true to Revelation but feel free to run fast and loose with lets say, Genesis? Why and who says so are always required for an answer to mean anything.

About the servant who buried his talents. Wasn't that a parable that was told under the law? Before the crucifixion? Wouldn't punishing the servant AFTER Calvary have been redundant as Jesus had then paid for his sins?

Disclaimer: I'm like you, just a lay-person who reads the bible and has no formal training, so here's just my opinion.

In your Revelation quote, I think he's only warning to not be a false prophet. Those that are will be judged according to their lies.

The parable about the talents, I understand that is about people that know of Jesus but do not trust in him. For even the demons believe in Jesus but are doomed to hell.

 

[JettaKnight]

I like that you are "nervous" rather than doctrinal on this. Making things policy is one thing. Making things law is quite another thing. The following is what makes ME nervous!
Revelation 22:18-19 King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


Here's a thing right here. Does this gruesome warning only apply to the book it's found in {Revelation}? or does it's principle extend across the entirety of scripture? Should I be true to Revelation but feel free to run fast and loose with lets say, Genesis? Why and who says so are always required for an answer to mean anything.

It applies to all of scripture. Ergo, it applies to Joseph Smith.

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

As to "Grace alone", that was God though Paul that made that "policy":

For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God.I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

Paul wrote a letter to Galatians because they got caught up in a heresy that grace isn't sufficient, life under the law is also required. Paul lays out an argument for why Christ's atonement is sufficient and they should stand firm in their faith and confidence in salvation and turn away from their false doctrine of trying to save themselves.

Paul, more than anyone, could have said, "look at my past: I killed Christians, there's no way I can be saved." Yet he's the one saying Christ can save anyone no matter how evil!

Furthermore, Paul was converted in a rather spectacular manner on the road to Damascus, therefore I'm sure that, combined with all his preaching on Grace Alone, he could have sat on his laurels and played golf. Yet he works tirelessly to spread the Gospel and live in a Christ-like fashion, i.e. what we might call "works". He's not doing because he has to, but because he wants to. He's overwhelmed with gratitude and awe of Christ and can't help but try and tell others.

 

[rvb]

romans 10:9 is my bible app verse of the day....If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.seemed fitting to this conversation....-rvb

 

[rvb]

what the parable of the talents in Matt 25 tells me is that we have to continue to grow in our faith, and to live out the great commission. We are tasked with bringing others to Christ. What we cannot do is hide our faith, bury it in the ground, remain stagnant. Did the 3rd servant really know God? He feared him above all else and didn't want to bring other followers to him and share His love. He Hid what little faith he had. That is why he is punished with that reference to hell (seems that helps answer another recent topic)? I don't think it really has to do with works-based salvation at all, but how Christ can see into the heart for whether true faith exists at all.

Similarly, the bride-groom parable that precedes it (also in Matt 25) tells us that we can't wait until we see Christ return to obtain faith (oil). It's too late at that time. You'll be locked out. There are other references to those who have faith in what they cannot see being blessed.

And Matthew 25 ends in another parable which is probably the stronger argument for works-based salvation..... on the surface. It tells us He will separate the sheep from the goats. But chicken-&-egg time.... he separates them first. He knows which is which. The works (or lack of) are descriptions of the characteristics of the sheep and goats, not what defines them AS sheep or goats. (The Calvinists in the room will even point out vs 34 says their spot in heaven was ready for them since the creation of the world, though I'm more inclined to read it the kingdom has been prepared since the creation of the world for those who would accept it).

There is historical context there as well, and I'm afraid I won't do it justice here.... But today in western civilized world, we could probably look at a sheep and goat and tell the difference, but that's thanks to 2k years of breeding to maximize wool production in sheep. In biblical times/location, you'd be hard pressed to look at a sheep and a goat and know the difference. But the shepherd could tell. The sheep followed the sound of his voice. Jesus knows who is in his flock w/o looking at a ledger book of actions.

just my 2c

-rvb

 

[JettaKnight]

Is this a goat or a sheep?

 

[historian]

When the Earth is restored, one might surmise that perfect animals would be there.

There will be. The lion will sleep with the lamb (again).

Just stumbled upon this thread.

Other Calvinists here?

Welcome...and good luck! Not a Calvinist, but a fellow travler. I'm cool with them, I just jump off on a couple of points. My pastor is a proud 7 point Calvinist, and I had to explain to my son John why we weren't going to name his soon to be born brother Calvin!

 

[historian]

I think I prefer the "bunch of grapes" option. I could start my own wine business. Has to be popular for all those Baptists who teetotalled back on Earth.

As a non-drinker, I'm looking forward to that part of heaven. Sadly, the flesh is weak, so I abstain.