CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

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    IndyDave1776

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    It's a joke Brother....

    Dawkins smugness and his whiny voice kind of make him the object of ridicule...(South Park comes to mind..)Great biologist, one of the best of our current time, but he refuses to let Darwinism fade into the dust bin of other failed 19th century theories....But to be fair to Darwin he had no idea how complicated life is, that DNA is literally the book of life, the advances we have made in micro biology, the Cambrian explosion fossil record in Canada and China, etc.....Science keeps pointing to intelligent design yet I can't hold anything against Dawkins for hanging on to the past...Heck I carry revolvers...:)

    That's funny Jludo...While looking up Cambrian explosion I finally ID'd a fossil I found in our little creek!!!

    science_origin_cambrian_06.jpg


    Early Cambrian trace fossils. Treptichnus pedum from the Lower Cambrian Mickwitzia Sandstone, Sweden (Swedish Geological Survey, Uppsala). Scale bar = 1 cm

    Revolvers work. Darwinism doesn't.
     
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    No, he seems woefully unprepared for the job. Animals going to heaven? Come on

    If by some chance I should find myself in heaven, I cannot have my dog? What the hell kind of heaven is that? There are people who by some circumstances have an intellect on a par with a dog, or even less. Terri Schiavo comes to mind. Birth defects, congenital disorders, some people are never up to rover's intelligence level from the beginning. Are those people banned? Because Rover has a larger vocabulary than they do?

    Perhaps it's not a factor of a reasoning mind but strictly of species? Octopus, porpoises, whales, chimpanzee, gorilla, elephants all have advanced intellects, capable of problem solving skills. No eternal reward for them? How do we know this? Are all animals sinners? Hmmm. As are we? Or maybe they have no understanding of right and wrong and are incapable of sin, yet sinless they have no place in the kingdom of god?

    I'm not trying to make trouble. these are just questions your post brought to my mind in about thirty seconds!
     

    hoosierdoc

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    Well I believe heaven is a reward for those who live a repentant life and claim Christ as their savior. I suppose if a frog were able to make that statement and life choice then he could join you.

    Regarding those without mental capacity, I view them as infants spiritually, held to a different standard
     

    T.Lex

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    The site header is kinda click bait.

    The Vatican PR department released a statement pointing out that the original reporter of the conversation did not quote the Pope, but paraphrased. If the Pope was trying to teach someone about the concepts and used analogies, then that was paraphrased, it is easy to see how things became non-doctrinal pretty quickly.

    Further, though, becoming nothing, compared to joining in God's love, could certainly be considered hell.

    Good breakdown of the situation:
    https://cruxnow.com/news-analysis/2...n-interview-pope-interview-this-time-on-hell/

    First, there’s basically zero plausibility that Francis actually said what Scalfari cites him as saying on Hell, at least as quoted, since Francis has a clear public record on the subject - he actually talks about Hell more frequently that any pope in recent memory, and he has never left any doubt that he regards it as a real possibility for one’s eternal destiny.
     
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    Well I believe heaven is a reward for those who live a repentant life and claim Christ as their savior. I suppose if a frog were able to make that statement and life choice then he could join you.

    Regarding those without mental capacity, I view them as infants spiritually, held to a different standard

    Fair enough. Why then cannot animals be as infants? A dog for instance is said to have an intellect of a four year old child, with a english vocabulary of maybe sixty words. lets say its a question not of rational mind but of soul, animals don't have them. then there is not another living thing in heaven but men. Not a tree or blade of grass! Every rule we put on heaven opens dozens of unintended consequences. Are there actual scriptures that plainly deny me my dog in heaven?
     

    Spear Dane

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    Fair enough. Why then cannot animals be as infants? A dog for instance is said to have an intellect of a four year old child, with a english vocabulary of maybe sixty words. lets say its a question not of rational mind but of soul, animals don't have them. then there is not another living thing in heaven but men. Not a tree or blade of grass! Every rule we put on heaven opens dozens of unintended consequences. Are there actual scriptures that plainly deny me my dog in heaven?

    There is no scripture prohibiting animals in heaven and anyone telling you otherwise is rendering an uninformed opinion. On the other hand it doesn't say there will be either. Guess we will find out.
     

    JettaKnight

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    Does anyone remember Art Bell's radio show "Coast To Coast"? A regular guest was a rogue priest named Father Malichai Martin. Father Malichai said on several occasions that very many cardinals denied the existence of Satan and hell. The belief that Jesus was not a historical person but was rather a construct of many different fables legends and tall tales was also widely held in the Vatican.

    SHOCKED.

    Given the history, size, and politics, I have no doubt that there are many in the RC Church that believe in Catholicism and not Christ.

    If by some chance I should find myself in heaven, I cannot have my dog? What the hell kind of heaven is that?
    You're hell is no dogs, my hell is dogs!

    There are people who by some circumstances have an intellect on a par with a dog, or even less. Terri Schiavo comes to mind. Birth defects, congenital disorders, some people are never up to rover's intelligence level from the beginning. Are those people banned? Because Rover has a larger vocabulary than they do?

    There's three issues. I'm not Foszoe, so this will be terse.

    1. Our heavenly bodies, see 2 Cor. 5.
    2. The issue dealing with the dumb (excuse the antiquated term), is the same for infants. What happens to those that can't mentally accept Christ? If you're a Calvinist, it's easy: the doctrine of irresistible grace covers all. God chooses who he wants. And if he chooses an infant, then salvation is sealed. If you're an Arminian, it's far trickier because the doctrine that man must actively accept Christ stands in the way.
    3. Animals go Heaven? Where did this nonsense come from? "Well, It's not in the Bible!" Sticking forks into outlets isn't in the Bible either... I'm sure you love Rover, but Rover doesn't have a soul, Rover wasn't created in the image of God, Rover is here to serve you. There's no basis to believe that Rover goes with you, or that you'll even care. For crying out loud, you're going to be in the full and un-attenuated glory of the Lord and you're worried about have a cat on your lap! Geesh!

    The current creation as we know it is broken: Animals bite. (need I say more?)

    When the Earth is restored, one might surmise that perfect animals would be there.
     

    indiucky

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    Does anyone remember Art Bell's radio show "Coast To Coast"? A regular guest was a rogue priest named Father Malichai Martin. Father Malichai said on several occasions that very many cardinals denied the existence of Satan and hell. The belief that Jesus was not a historical person but was rather a construct of many different fables legends and tall tales was also widely held in the Vatican.


    Check this out on Netflix....Also his Art Bell interviews are on youtube....This film explores Malachi Martin's death....

    [video=youtube;FN1v0QZ6Wc4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN1v0QZ6Wc4[/video]
     

    JettaKnight

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    Fair enough. Why then cannot animals be as infants? A dog for instance is said to have an intellect of a four year old child, with a english vocabulary of maybe sixty words. lets say its a question not of rational mind but of soul, animals don't have them. then there is not another living thing in heaven but men. Not a tree or blade of grass! Every rule we put on heaven opens dozens of unintended consequences. Are there actual scriptures that plainly deny me my dog in heaven?

    Your argument can be carried to an absurd level.

    Why do humans go to Heaven?
    Because we're all God's children and he offers us Salvation out of grace and mercy.
    Why is abortion and murder wrong?
    Because the it is killing God's children outside of law.

    Next stop: PETA protest.


    You ask if you'll have your dog at your side, perhaps the answer is the the question: Will I have my wife at my side?
     

    JettaKnight

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    I think the fundamental error here is that we have faith that our salvation will get us to Heaven, but we don't have enough faith that Christ is doing a good enough job preparing Heaven in a way that will make us happy. We're so caught up in earthly pleasures we can't imagine being without them or that there's something better. (Thanks, Joel, for My Best Life Now!)
    John 14:3 said:
    And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

    Something to lighten this up:
    [video=youtube;WEchg1KhmTY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEchg1KhmTY[/video]
     

    IndyDave1776

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    SHOCKED.

    Given the history, size, and politics, I have no doubt that there are many in the RC Church that believe in Catholicism and not Christ.


    You're hell is no dogs, my hell is dogs!



    There's three issues. I'm not Foszoe, so this will be terse.

    1. Our heavenly bodies, see 2 Cor. 5.
    2. The issue dealing with the dumb (excuse the antiquated term), is the same for infants. What happens to those that can't mentally accept Christ? If you're a Calvinist, it's easy: the doctrine of irresistible grace covers all. God chooses who he wants. And if he chooses an infant, then salvation is sealed. If you're an Arminian, it's far trickier because the doctrine that man must actively accept Christ stands in the way.
    3. Animals go Heaven? Where did this nonsense come from? "Well, It's not in the Bible!" Sticking forks into outlets isn't in the Bible either... I'm sure you love Rover, but Rover doesn't have a soul, Rover wasn't created in the image of God, Rover is here to serve you. There's no basis to believe that Rover goes with you, or that you'll even care. For crying out loud, you're going to be in the full and un-attenuated glory of the Lord and you're worried about have a cat on your lap! Geesh!

    The current creation as we know it is broken: Animals bite. (need I say more?)

    When the Earth is restored, one might surmise that perfect animals would be there.


    o6jDtIa.png
     
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    You ask if you'll have your dog at your side, perhaps the answer is the the question: Will I have my wife at my side?

    I am no biblical scholar but this comes to mind,

    Matthew 22:30 King James Version (KJV)

    [SUP]30 [/SUP]For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    King James Version (KJV)

    .
    Your wife could very well be by your side, but she will no longer be your wife. Marriage is till death do you part. You both will be as the angles in heaven, complete in yourselves. Autonomous.

    Or that's how I read it. I could be seeing completely wrong for all I know. I think a lot of things are being said here that no human knows for sure.

    Perhaps my dog will be by my side too, but no longer my dog. I see no scripture. The bible seems silent on it.
     

    Alpo

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    I think I prefer the "bunch of grapes" option. I could start my own wine business. Has to be popular for all those Baptists who teetotalled back on Earth. :)
     

    GodFearinGunTotin

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    I've been told that if you're hoping to get to heaven so you can do your own thing for the rest of eternity rather than to worship God and be in his presence, it's not heaven you're looking for.
     
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    Isn't it in the end by grace alone? I get credits for being human? In the image of god? Yet other Images of god get to burn?

    Do works send me to heaven? living a good life? like animals do? even when ALL have fallen short? A righteous man's rigorousness is as filthy rags. not so?
     

    JettaKnight

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    I am no biblical scholar but this comes to mind,

    Matthew 22:30 King James Version (KJV)

    [SUP]30 [/SUP]For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    King James Version (KJV)

    .
    Your wife could very well be by your side, but she will no longer be your wife. Marriage is till death do you part. You both will be as the angles in heaven, complete in yourselves. Autonomous.

    Or that's how I read it. I could be seeing completely wrong for all I know. I think a lot of things are being said here that no human knows for sure.
    Indeed that's correct. Don't let Mormons tell you otherwise.

    There's many things that aren't explicitly spelled out in the Bible, like the Trinity. Yet, that's one thing we all (except T.D. Jakes) agree on. THe reason why is all the scripture that leads one to that conclusion. I don't see any scripture that leads one toward dogs going to Heaven. Of course, you can continue to hold to your view in the absence of clear exclusion of dogs, but you can't make any argument for why it is true. That's the part that gets people into a lot of trouble on a lot of issues far more dangerous than this.
     

    JettaKnight

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    Isn't it in the end by grace alone? I get credits for being human? In the image of god? Yet other Images of god get to burn?

    Do works send me to heaven? living a good life? like animals do? even when ALL have fallen short? A righteous man's rigorousness is as filthy rags. not so?
    Indeed, Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

    Do other "images of God" get to burn? Sadly, yes.
    Romans 9:21 said:
    Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
     
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    So........ I also have just found this. Is this actually a bona fide discussion or one of INGO's bottomless rabbit holes? Are there actual.....{gasp} CHRISTIANS here? Is anyone here recognized as a reasonable and ethical bible scholar? WUT? A rational discourse between intelligent normal people? OUTRAGEOUS!!

    If I could get a civil religious discussion I would have dozens of questions that I would love to get opinions on. I'm not up to going back and reading every post like I did for the WALLET thread, to find the man {men!} behind the curtain. That's time I will never get back!
     
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