City council planning for TEOTWAWKI

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  • Tactically Fat

    Grandmaster
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    A while back I contacted our city EMA person with a plan to handle EMP attack and got crickets in response.
    Because something like that is rather far down the list of things for a municipality to prepare for.

    Flooding, Tornadoes, EQs, and power outages caused by those things will always take priority.
     

    Timjoebillybob

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    ” I can also unequivocally state (and I don’t know an emergency manager who would disagree with me) that NOBODY should expect help from their government during the first few weeks of any major disaster. The issues we saw in Katrina and Sandy (among others) only confirm it. The people who needed help right away were the ones who didn’t prepare. They took away resources that could have been used to recover infrastructure and bring the communities back on line a lot sooner.” - Valerie Lucus-McEwen, 2012
    Yep, and those were relatively small scale compared to the New Madrid fault if it really let go. One of the worst case projections I saw ended up with the gulf of Mexico about 75 miles or so from my house. Basically it split the country up the middle and the gulf flooded in.
    Carbide? DD you’re telling on yourself.
    :)
    You can still buy them.
     

    Ingomike

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    In a true EOTW situation, the last thing in the world I want (need) is gov. involvement of any kind. In particular I don’t want them to know my ability, thoughts, equipment, stores, situation. Let them take charge of the sheeple and I will take charge of me and mine. How did gov. intervention workout for folks after Katrina??? Good Luck. I truly hope the best for you if the ball ever drops.
    The problem you will find is they will treat you like the sheeple as folks in Katrina found out. There is no such thing as you in charge of you and yours if you are in any way visible…
     

    spencer rifle

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    Scrounging brass
    You can still buy them.
    But why would you want to? They are smelly and dangerous. Can't use them for vertical caving lest you accidentally melt your rope. Caves are full of graffiti made by the carbon of carbide lights. You have to pack out used carbide, which poses another hazard. Years ago we were in Wayne's Cave with a carbide caver. On the way out in a crawl he had to get into his pack, which had used carbide in it. Not so used that it was all done producing acetylene, though. As he rooted around in his pack his carbide light set off the accumulated gas. The resulting boom scared us who were further up in the passage, and singed off his eyebrows.
     

    Mij

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    In the corn and beans
    The problem you will find is they will treat you like the sheeple as folks in Katrina found out. There is no such thing as you in charge of you and yours if you are in any way visible…


    Like I said, my ability, stores, situation. “They” may find I’m more trouble than I’m worth. I’m fairly isolated, not many people out here. “They” are not going to worry about one single relatively small group of well prepared individuals “They” will have much larger worries on there hands, in a true EOTW situation. I’d tie up to many resource for “They” to force there will upon me and mine. JMO. NG rangers ain’t gonna cut it.
     

    Timjoebillybob

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    But why would you want to? They are smelly and dangerous. Can't use them for vertical caving lest you accidentally melt your rope. Caves are full of graffiti made by the carbon of carbide lights. You have to pack out used carbide, which poses another hazard. Years ago we were in Wayne's Cave with a carbide caver. On the way out in a crawl he had to get into his pack, which had used carbide in it. Not so used that it was all done producing acetylene, though. As he rooted around in his pack his carbide light set off the accumulated gas. The resulting boom scared us who were further up in the passage, and singed off his eyebrows.
    Yeah, probably not good for caving. But I can see some limited use for them. The carbide in sealed cans won't go bad unlike stored batteries. Will produce some heat if it's cold. But the same goes for kero lanterns.
     

    tbhausen

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    There are numerous ways our civilization could collapse -- earthquakes (New Madrid anyone?), wars, nuclear attacks, asteroid strike, CME, EMP, pandemic, financial collapse, etc...

    It seems to me more and more non-preppers today are getting the message and starting to prepare. I live in a small town in rural SW Indiana and I feel if we could get more people preparing and sending a positive message to citizens, then it would be easier on all of us in our community when something happened.

    A while back I contacted our city EMA person with a plan to handle EMP attack and got crickets in response. Have any of you folks talked to your community leaders/elected officials about preparing for high impact/low frequency planning for disasters? If so, what has been their response?
    Hand “Mr. Crickets” a copy of ”One Second After” and tell him how important it is that he read it.
     

    tbhausen

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    In Lights Out and One Second After, the people did well by banding their energies and resources together for the good of their community. Everyone pitched in and helped. I realize these are just stories and real life would probably be a lot more chaotic but I'd like to hope tight communities could pull through.
    Ah, I see you’ve read it already… Excellent!
     

    tbhausen

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    I wouldn’t use fiction to determine what works. Gives good strategy and tips but you have to look at the real world to see what works. And frankly there’s little precedent for a disaster of global proportions

    However, being united with like minded people in a crisis is far better than being alone. Having a good plan is better than none. Having supplies is better than none.
    Fiction can help make the point for those who haven’t pondered the issue.
     

    Blackhawk2001

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    I worked for the Marion County EMA 20 years ago; and worked there about the time people were freaking out about the New Madrid Fault in 1991. I also was on the IN-TF1 US&R Task Force for 10 years and was down in Mississippi with the Indiana Army National Guard in 2005. Recently, had occasion to look a bit at the state of preparedness in the local area and at the federal level. This isn't expert knowledge, but my observations:

    There is a national emergency planning process in place and plenty of information for everyone about how good emergency planning is conducted at all levels of government. Marion County hasn't had an emergency management organization for about 10 years, but they've been able to get by because we haven't had any major disasters in the county - unless you count the BLM nonsense - during those 10 years. Marion County felt comfortable getting rid of the EMA, I think, because all the major government agencies and businesses have had close working relationships for major events such as the Indy 500 and its associated festivities, other downtown convention and entertainment activities, and the SuperBowl in 2012. How those working relationships will hold up under a catastrophic emergency situation is unknown, because the county doesn't have an up-to-date plan that I've been able to find and the people they've hired to get the EMA going again are spending time jockeying for position in the organization at the moment.

    The State EMA seems, from what little I've seen, to have maintained itself and has developed some pretty good logistical plans, at least, and is going about building, testing and structuring them in a serious manner.

    Other EMAs, mostly located in jurisdictions with major manufacturing facilities it seems, have a better handle on emergency planning and have structured their response around what is available locally and what the State can contribute when it gets spun up to do so. Of course, that support may be of limited value if the situation is so bad that a majority or all of the state is affected.

    Back in the 1990s, when the New Madrid Fault was a serious concern, a number of states formed a consortium to assist one another in the event of a major disaster. State governors have since that time occasionally called upon other governors to assist them with specific needs during major disasters. For instance, IIRC, it was at the request of the governor of Mississippi that the governors of New York and Indiana sent National Guard resources to Mississippi to assist after Hurricane Katrina - although we ended up getting "federalized" and paid by the US government after the fact.

    On the federal level, FEMA has the ability to coordinate a tremendous amount of resources and get them to a disaster area, but unless it's something with sufficient warning - like Hurricane Katrina, for example - occurs, it's going to take the feds some amount of time to understand the situation and get resources underway to assist. The Forest Service and the Urban Search & Rescue Task Forces are good examples of resources that have been developed to be quickly deployed where needed. The feds have developed some tools that we didn't have 20 years ago to get some of that needed data more quickly, but it remains to individual jurisdictions to acquire those tools and they are not without cost, so not everyone is going to be able to take advantage of them.

    On the whole, though, once the federal, state, and local governments have run through their resources - and while we're waiting for those resources to be deployed - it's going to fall on individuals and groups to band together to get by. Some will accomplish that better than others, but for all its faults, our society seems to be one where, at least in some segments, people help one another out where they can. The people who have the least amount of angst, though, are going to be the people that prepare themselves and their families as well as they can for any foreseeable disaster.
     

    Mij

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    May 22, 2022
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    In the corn and beans
    I worked for the Marion County EMA 20 years ago; and worked there about the time people were freaking out about the New Madrid Fault in 1991. I also was on the IN-TF1 US&R Task Force for 10 years and was down in Mississippi with the Indiana Army National Guard in 2005. Recently, had occasion to look a bit at the state of preparedness in the local area and at the federal level. This isn't expert knowledge, but my observations:

    There is a national emergency planning process in place and plenty of information for everyone about how good emergency planning is conducted at all levels of government. Marion County hasn't had an emergency management organization for about 10 years, but they've been able to get by because we haven't had any major disasters in the county - unless you count the BLM nonsense - during those 10 years. Marion County felt comfortable getting rid of the EMA, I think, because all the major government agencies and businesses have had close working relationships for major events such as the Indy 500 and its associated festivities, other downtown convention and entertainment activities, and the SuperBowl in 2012. How those working relationships will hold up under a catastrophic emergency situation is unknown, because the county doesn't have an up-to-date plan that I've been able to find and the people they've hired to get the EMA going again are spending time jockeying for position in the organization at the moment.

    The State EMA seems, from what little I've seen, to have maintained itself and has developed some pretty good logistical plans, at least, and is going about building, testing and structuring them in a serious manner.

    Other EMAs, mostly located in jurisdictions with major manufacturing facilities it seems, have a better handle on emergency planning and have structured their response around what is available locally and what the State can contribute when it gets spun up to do so. Of course, that support may be of limited value if the situation is so bad that a majority or all of the state is affected.

    Back in the 1990s, when the New Madrid Fault was a serious concern, a number of states formed a consortium to assist one another in the event of a major disaster. State governors have since that time occasionally called upon other governors to assist them with specific needs during major disasters. For instance, IIRC, it was at the request of the governor of Mississippi that the governors of New York and Indiana sent National Guard resources to Mississippi to assist after Hurricane Katrina - although we ended up getting "federalized" and paid by the US government after the fact.

    On the federal level, FEMA has the ability to coordinate a tremendous amount of resources and get them to a disaster area, but unless it's something with sufficient warning - like Hurricane Katrina, for example - occurs, it's going to take the feds some amount of time to understand the situation and get resources underway to assist. The Forest Service and the Urban Search & Rescue Task Forces are good examples of resources that have been developed to be quickly deployed where needed. The feds have developed some tools that we didn't have 20 years ago to get some of that needed data more quickly, but it remains to individual jurisdictions to acquire those tools and they are not without cost, so not everyone is going to be able to take advantage of them.

    On the whole, though, once the federal, state, and local governments have run through their resources - and while we're waiting for those resources to be deployed - it's going to fall on individuals and groups to band together to get by. Some will accomplish that better than others, but for all its faults, our society seems to be one where, at least in some segments, people help one another out where they can. The people who have the least amount of angst, though, are going to be the people that prepare themselves and their families as well as they can for any foreseeable disaster.
    I’ve done some extensive research on the aftermath of Katrina. Mostly firsthand accounts from the men and wemon that were on the scene after being deployed to the AO. Across a large spectrum of disciplines. From medical to bus drivers for evac. From what I’ve read the whole thing was a cluster “””””. A true national embarrassment, I’ve neither seen nor heard anything that will make me think our gov. will be able to assist me in ANY major crisis that arises. My own research was the basis for a lot of my past and ongoing work.
     

    Blackhawk2001

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    I’ve done some extensive research on the aftermath of Katrina. Mostly firsthand accounts from the men and wemon that were on the scene after being deployed to the AO. Across a large spectrum of disciplines. From medical to bus drivers for evac. From what I’ve read the whole thing was a cluster “””””. A true national embarrassment, I’ve neither seen nor heard anything that will make me think our gov. will be able to assist me in ANY major crisis that arises. My own research was the basis for a lot of my past and ongoing work.
    I think most of what you've read about the Katrina response concerns Louisiana and the screwed up response in Louisiana was their fault, not the fault of FEMA. In the first place, the governor refused to declare an emergency and request federal aid- a requirement to receive it. Then she wouldn't allow outside responders into the state for three days. THEN the US&R Task Forces literally had to cut their way down to the coast. I know this because at the time I was still pretty well connected with the local folks in the FEMA Incident Response Team who were coordinating the various US&R TFs deployed.

    New Orleans had a disaster evacuation plan, but the Mayor was out of town and the evacuation was never implemented.

    President Bush declared a state of emergency prior to Katrina hitting the coast - which was contrary to the Stafford Act at the time - and FEMA and the US military PREDEPLOYED 48M cases of MREs and hundreds of thousands of gallons of water outside the disaster area. Mississippi's governor immediately declared a disaster emergency and requested aid from the government and it was immediately forthcoming.

    By the time the Indiana Guard got to Mississippi, about a week after Katrina, people along the coast of Mississippi were putting tarps on the roofs of their houses and turning down offers of water and MREs; they mostly needed diapers and milk.

    In the meantime, residents of Louisiana were still bitching; their governor wasn't doing much of anything and all we heard was some idiot on FoxNews crying about their plight. The residents of Louisiana outside New Orleans were cleaning out their houses; hanging their mattresses out to dry; and generally getting on with their lives. I know this because one of our former crewchiefs had moved back to Louisiana and was working at a National Guard maintenance facility in Gulfport; we ran into him a couple times during the three weeks we were there.

    So don't base your opinion on FEMA's capabilities on what you've heard about the response to Hurricane Katrina.

    EDIT: In the end, if the disaster is widespread enough and severe enough, it's going to run through all available government resources - local, state & federal - fairly quickly, so developing those local support groups is going to be essential for survival. May as well start planning now.
     
    Last edited:

    Mij

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    In the corn and beans
    I think most of what you've read about the Katrina response concerns Louisiana and the screwed up response in Louisiana was their fault, not the fault of FEMA. In the first place, the governor refused to declare an emergency and request federal aid- a requirement to receive it. Then she wouldn't allow outside responders into the state for three days. THEN the US&R Task Forces literally had to cut their way down to the coast. I know this because at the time I was still pretty well connected with the local folks in the FEMA Incident Response Team who were coordinating the various US&R TFs deployed.

    New Orleans had a disaster evacuation plan, but the Mayor was out of town and the evacuation was never implemented.

    President Bush declared a state of emergency prior to Katrina hitting the coast - which was contrary to the Stafford Act at the time - and FEMA and the US military PREDEPLOYED 48M cases of MREs and hundreds of thousands of gallons of water outside the disaster area. Mississippi's governor immediately declared a disaster emergency and requested aid from the government and it was immediately forthcoming.

    By the time the Indiana Guard got to Mississippi, about a week after Katrina, people along the coast of Mississippi were putting tarps on the roofs of their houses and turning down offers of water and MREs; they mostly needed diapers and milk.

    In the meantime, residents of Louisiana were still bitching; their governor wasn't doing much of anything and all we heard was some idiot on FoxNews crying about their plight. The residents of Louisiana outside New Orleans were cleaning out their houses; hanging their mattresses out to dry; and generally getting on with their lives. I know this because one of our former crewchiefs had moved back to Louisiana and was working at a National Guard maintenance facility in Gulfport; we ran into him a couple times during the three weeks we were there.

    So don't base your opinion on FEMA's capabilities on what you've heard about the response to Hurricane Katrina.

    EDIT: In the end, if the disaster is widespread enough and severe enough, it's going to run through all available government resources - local, state & federal - fairly quickly, so developing those local support groups is going to be essential for survival. May as well start planning now.
    Sir: Thank you for keeping preparedness at the fore.
    Thank you for your response to my post. The depth of my research goes much deeper than reading. And is much more in-depth than can be put in this venue.

    As I’ve stated “I’ve neither seen nor heard anything that will make me think our gov. will be able to assist me in ANY major crisis that arises.” I’ll stand by my statement.

    And I have been planning for a major upheaval in goods and services for decades. Some of my comrades in arms had family here at home during hurricane Camille in 69. (Biloxi Mississippi) Best of luck to you and yours.

    This ain’t my first day on the job, (of life).
     

    Blackhawk2001

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    Sir: Thank you for keeping preparedness at the fore.
    Thank you for your response to my post. The depth of my research goes much deeper than reading. And is much more in-depth than can be put in this venue.

    As I’ve stated “I’ve neither seen nor heard anything that will make me think our gov. will be able to assist me in ANY major crisis that arises.” I’ll stand by my statement.

    And I have been planning for a major upheaval in goods and services for decades. Some of my comrades in arms had family here at home during hurricane Camille in 69. (Biloxi Mississippi) Best of luck to you and yours.

    This ain’t my first day on the job, (of life).
    I've had the misfortune to sit through a couple hurricanes myself: Alicia in 1983 and Carlos in 1985. I'll accept your distinction that the government won't be able to help YOU, but not that the government won't be able to help anyone else at some point during a major disaster.
     

    Mij

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    In the corn and beans
    I've had the misfortune to sit through a couple hurricanes myself: Alicia in 1983 and Carlos in 1985. I'll accept your distinction that the government won't be able to help YOU, but not that the government won't be able to help anyone else at some point during a major disaster.
    Good enough, have a good one. :thumbsup:
     
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