Cheap VS Expensive

[Creedmoor]

I have learned on the INGO that the cheapest, crappiest stuff, is just as good … as long as you actually never use it.

I love the "This is my daily carry threads"
Not a wear point on the knife, holster or handgun.
And Will a holster wear the finish off my pistol?

 

[88E30M50]

Many of us have learned to respect quality the hard way. We bought the $100 red dot because it was insane to think of dropping $600 on something that works just as well. Then, we found out that there's a huge difference in something working right out of the box and it working with actual use. $25 pistol lights that died within a mag or 4 of first use. Red dots that don't hold zero from range trip to range trip. A scout optic that the lenses actually fell out of with use on a rifle.

I've experienced all of that and the cost of going cheap was not only in wasted money for throwaway parts, but in time, frustration and ammo. Going cheap will turn a range trip bad very quickly. That $125 dollar red dot that you get dialed in only to find that it's now hitting left an inch. Adjust only to find it hitting right now. Shoot some more and adjust again and now the dang thing is hitting high. All while your shooting buddies are having fun with their 'over priced' quality red dot that's giving them consistent groups.

Many of us have been there and spent way more money buying cheap stuff than we would of had we just bought quality.

Last month, I put an ACOG on a rifle. I could have saved $850 on a $150 Amazon knockoff, but 5 years from now, this ACOG will still be working and accurate where as the knockoff would be in a landfill somewhere

 

[bwframe]

Are there just as many folks having to justify their insanely overpriced big name branded item (because it was their choice?)

As there are those who claim their cheap junk is just as good?

 

[crewchief888]

When I wasn't sure if I wanted a red dot (never used one) I bought the cheapest.

It was enough to make me realize that I liked them. and wanted another.
I took it to the range half a dozen (or less) times, and then EVERY TIME I shot the gun, the optic shut off, and I'd have to power it up again.
This was on a .22 LR. So, not much kick.

Checked to make sure the battery was seated okay, and not loose.

So, next time, I bought better.

ive been using red dots in competition since the mid 90's. i started actively shooting again 5 years ago with new and different guns. i wanted dots on a couple of them, and not sure of what size/color/ type i really wanted. i picked up a couple of sub $100 dots to try out on 2 different 22LR guns.. i figured out one thing after replacing both of them twice, i didnt want THOSE dots. i spent quite a bit more on a new dot, and have been very happy with my choice. i have them on all 3 of my optic raceguns

 

[joe138]

Another factor is that the cheap China made knock offs, stole the technology from the original. The cheap ones did not have the engineering costs or several other start up costs, just making copies of the original.

 

[Hohenheim]

Another factor is that the cheap China made knock offs, stole the technology from the original. The cheap ones did not have the engineering costs or several other start up costs, just making copies of the original.

If they stole the entire design and technology, then wouldn't that make them a low cost alternative to the original? It is like Tylenal VS. acetaminophen generic medicine. They are literally the exact same but branding will cost you a few extra bucks.

 

[Hohenheim]

Are there just as many folks having to justify their insanely overpriced big name branded item (because it was their choice?)

As there are those who claim their cheap junk is just as good?

I agree that you get to a point where the cheap stuff is inexpensive because they cut corners and slacked on quality. However, I could spend 45k on a red dot and say I would never go back because its just a different level of quality, which would definitely be accurate. But, there is a point when manufacturing and labor costs cap out and that extra price just simply is not justified. So, where is the price point that gives you the best bang for your buck? It seems to jump from a reasonable price to absolutely ridiculous pretty fast. I have found that a large population of the gun community says that I need to spend the price of my gun on an attachment or it will not function properly. Maybe I just need to start my own firearm accessories company

 

[bwframe]

I agree that you get to a point where the cheap stuff is inexpensive because they cut corners and slacked on quality. However, I could spend 45k on a red dot and say I would never go back because its just a different level of quality, which would definitely be accurate. But, there is a point when manufacturing and labor costs cap out and that extra price just simply is not justified. So, where is the price point that gives you the best bang for your buck? It seems to jump from a reasonable price to absolutely ridiculous pretty fast. I have found that a large population of the gun community says that I need to spend the price of my gun on an attachment or it will not function properly. Maybe I just need to start my own firearm accessories company

There is also the business competition factor involved.

Holosun is a great example of this. They went from being the "cheap Chinese junk," to being a serious contender with top dog RDS makers. Also their pricing has reflected this.

Holosun's inovations have gone well beyond the bigger dogs, while those dogs are happy to collect name recognition high dollars, while not seeing a changing industry.

Meanwhile, folks like our own cedartop, attest that RMR vs Holosun has a similar failure rate or possibly worse.

 

[Vanderbilt]

In my experience. If it is equipment you will use a lot, the cost of the cheap one is as follows:

Cheap one = the price of the cheap one + the price of the one you should have bought in the first place.

Because when the cheap one proves itself to be insufficient, it will be necessary to buy the good one too.

...yep, if your life or livelihood may depend upon a tool, you need the best money can buy. If it's something that can fail, guarantee you'll replace it enough times to justify buying the right one once.....otoh, if it's something you rarely expect to use, the cheap one may do. My case in point, needed a bayonet for my 1903 Springfield for a match our club shoots once a year.....original 1905 collector grade bayonets are expensive. Found a repop on Amazon that I refit with a pair of wood handles.....it will suit my purposes for a fraction of the cost.....if it were to be broken or lost, I won't be that upset.

 

[Born2vette]

If its going on a firearm I use for HD or carry it better have some really good reviews and objective testing to back it up. Granted, my nightstand pistol may never get dropped from 6‘ onto concrete but nice to know it will likely still be usable, function and hold zero with cracked glass. Also, don’t believe just because one product from a manufacturer is GTG that they don’t also sell junk!

See Aaron Cowan’s white paper on dots. He generally only tests what would be considered adequate for LEO duty use but he reviews quite a few ‘consumer grade’ dots on his you tube channel.
There is a lot of good info and hours upon hours of testing here:

https://www.sagedynamics.org/_files/ugd/7dc128_6377087e72264cd18dbcb04eea4686ce.pdf

and here:

https://youtube.com/@SageDynamics

Of course if you are just using it as a range toy, go cheap!

 

[Hohenheim]

There is also the business competition factor involved.

Holosun is a great example of this. They went from being the "cheap Chinese junk," to being a serious contender with top dog RDS makers. Also their pricing has reflected this.

Holosun's inovations have gone well beyond the bigger dogs, while those dogs are happy to collect name recognition high dollars, while not seeing a changing industry.

Meanwhile, folks like our own cedartop, attest that RMR vs Holosun has a similar failure rate or possibly worse.

I have seen this frequently. A company comes in, realizes that they can produce similar quality for a fraction of the cost, kicks the competition's butt, and then joins their competition in coasting on their name recognition. So my question would be this: What is that company that produces quality product for reasonable prices and is yet to price gouge based on their brand recognition?

 

[ZurokSlayer7X9]

I agree that you get to a point where the cheap stuff is inexpensive because they cut corners and slacked on quality. However, I could spend 45k on a red dot and say I would never go back because its just a different level of quality, which would definitely be accurate. But, there is a point when manufacturing and labor costs cap out and that extra price just simply is not justified. So, where is the price point that gives you the best bang for your buck? It seems to jump from a reasonable price to absolutely ridiculous pretty fast. I have found that a large population of the gun community says that I need to spend the price of my gun on an attachment or it will not function properly. Maybe I just need to start my own firearm accessories company

At some point you definitely get diminishing returns on things from a non-collectible standpoint. My previous employer had a Berretta shotgun that cost $40,000 he was gifted by a rich client. Apparently you could shoot skeet with it all day and not get a sore shoulder, but I would still take a Benelli M4 when it comes to reliability and practicality, even though the M4 is less than 5% of that gold leaf Berretta.

 

[Expat]

Remember to keep repeating “it’s justasgood”

 

[Kalashalite]

Many have touched on the "Buy once cry once" idea.

But I will say that much like history and hotness/crazy scale, the truth lies somewhere in between. You can get the $600 optic and cry once about the price, or you can get a few lousy chi-com optics and cry about having to replace them. But with the right amount of research and going off the beaten path you can often times find a happy medium. There's something for everyone you just have to do the legwork to find those items sometimes.

I'm not an optics guy so I'll use the example of the Beretta PX4 Compact Carry, it is a $900 gun. But I can get the Compact for $450 and source some of the parts separately and get my gun in the same ballpark of characteristics of the Compact Carry and still have a really good pistol and save money while I'm at it. $600-$700 when all done.

 

[700 LTR 223]

I feel as though gun accessories are needlessly expensive at times and the cheaper option is normally demonized for no reason other than it is inexpensive.

Some time ago when I used to shoot bullseye league I bought a couple of Tasco Pro Point red dots instead of the more expensive Ultradots. The Tascos eventually quit working , one not working at all , one stayed at just one brightness. If I had gone with the Ultradots they would probably still be going strong and if not they would be covered by a lifetime warranty. All my tube style red dots are now Ultradots.

Some cheaper optics like a Chinese Simmons 22 Mag vs a moderately priced Japan Weaver and the difference in lens coatings is clearly seen. A lens is suppose to transmit light , not reflect it - the Simmons lens is like a mirror compared to the Weaver scope and the Weaver is not a high end scope by any means. There is a reason why cheap optics are cheap.

 

[Hookeye]

I bought a Sightmark Mini Shot M spec.
Was just over $200 and it's worked fine.
Doesn't have shake n wake, battery life isnt great.
But for a range toy its worked and held zero. No probs.

Taught me that a reflex is something I like and will use.
So will be upgrading to non Chinesium.

 

[MidwesternStructures]

You should feel the difference between the $14 “tactical” belt I bought on Amazon vs the $70 Nexbelt.

Typically, not always, but typically more money = more reliability. This is one of those things you don’t cheap out on.

 

[russc2542]

There are a lot of things that can cause a price difference... for one thing American employers pay American wages (and insurance, taxes, retirement, vacation, etc) to their engineers and assembly line workers. Chinese manufacturers pay peanuts (grains of rice?) and there's a line around the block of replacements.

Is the difference linear? Not usually. Law of diminishing returns comes into play fairly quickly. a $100 red dot is a lot better than a $50 one but a $200 one isn't going to be even that much of a difference vs the $100 one. $3-400 better still but you're taking the long view here.

There's absolutely a quality difference but there are different ways of quantifying it. I remember spending most of a day shooting two matchers behind a chinese optic and going home with a splitting headache from it. When I got home, my $1500 leupold had arrived and was sitting on the porch. I remember holding it up looking out the back door thinking "OMG I can see EVERYTHING!" as I was counting the individual leaves on the trees hundreds of yards away.

Cost can also mean durability: Does it hold zero cycling on a handgun or on a magnum rifle? (or does it hold zero at all)
Are the adjustments calibrated and linear (Is one click actually 1/4 moa and is one click 1/4 moa through the whole range)?
Are the adjustments repeatable through a box test?

Yes, there's some cost savings from being late to the party and not having the engineering investment to recoup. There's also something to be said about actually engineering things (and knowing why they are the way they are and how they work) rather than reverse engineering "good enough". Is a feature designed to be the way it is or is it just there because it looks like the other guys did it that way?

Deviation rate: Production processes are designed to have as few errors as possible and catch those that do deviate before going to the customer. How many are there that have to be pulled before they're shipped? How many are missed and make it to customers?

Failure rate: Even if everything else goes right (though all of the above contributes) all things fail. They all fail at different times but what's the minimum time before failure? maximum? average?

There outliers though. There are times where a bad manufacturer gets lucky or a good manufacturer just does an easy job to get some parts moved... I have some Konus rimfire scopes that were only $80 but are amazing. I think they had some leftover parts from other jobs or maybe rejects from high end scopes that didn't meet a spec at >24x but amazing glass at 4x. Like bringing in an olympic shooting trainer to teach the boy scouts rifle merit badge... so grossly overqualified he could do it in his sleep.

 

[Creedmoor]

I'm still laughing that $600.00 Optic is a cry once on the price.

 

[Hohenheim]

I'm still laughing that $600.00 Optic is a cry once on the price.

I do not spend a lot of time on the range and maybe I am missing something, but I have put a lot of rounds down range and I rarely run into issues. People tell me not to go with a cheaper gun because it is prone to jamming. People tell me cheap optics do not hold zero. Or, that expensive gear is totally worth it. Well, I shoot a lot of cheap guns and I have never had a gun jam on me. I have used cheap optics and they hold zero through rough and tumble situation and I have yet to have a battery run out on me. And, I have both airsoft and military grade equipment and sometimes airsoft gear works and feels just as nice for a fraction of the price. I have the occasional bad round, but that is the extent of my issues. Maybe I am just extremely lucky. So, with my history of smooth operation, I have a hard time justifying dumping money into every little accessory. I guess I will need to borrow some friends gear to compare the quality, but I do not think I can just accept the "Just spend a crap load of money on something because price ensures quality" mindset. Unless someone can drop the blueprints for a Cheap and Expensive optic so I can see for myself what the difference in price is getting me.