Bolt Rifle vs Semiauto

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  • G192127

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    I see (on tv) most all sniper type rifles are Bolt action, typically a Winchester 70.
    Why? Over a blow-back rifle does a locked up
    breech offer that much more in fps?
     

    Tombs

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    I see (on tv) most all sniper type rifles are Bolt action, typically a Winchester 70.
    Why? Over a blow-back rifle does a locked up
    breech offer that much more in fps?

    It's easier to make a bolt action accurate for less weight, expense, and complexity.

    When you don't have a gas system to deal with, barrel harmonics are easier to work out.

    I don't buy the argument that a semi-auto can't match or exceed a bolt action, it's just going to be heavier and more expensive to manufacture. Accuracy is really all down to barrel quality and harmonic tuning. Other factors matter but if you go with a heavy enough barrel, it starts shrinking the importance of other factors.

    Also big mean ELR cartridges are kind of unwieldy to run in a semi-automatic. It can be done, almost anything can be, but at what cost?
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    I think another consideration is that snipers are typically taking one shot at a time. There's no need for speed, so to speak. And as others have said the bolt gun is going to be simpler and easier to make accurate with less weight.
     

    natdscott

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    I think another consideration is that snipers are typically taking one shot at a time. There's no need for speed, so to speak.
    A statement of general truth, for the history of the profession, but one was recently turned on it’s head in Iraq.

    The M110 platform really came into its own in the highly dynamic urban theaters, with short exposures, and relatively short ranges from contact to 7-800 meters. With a decent VPO, they do a helluva job in an emergency suppressive fire mode as well; though the individual sniper’s loadout isn’t typically enough rounds for their primary long rifle to last very long in a firefight, the battle effects of heavier rounds inflicted with precision has been proven time and time again.

    Then, we went to Afghanistan, and found that a .308 just doesn’t go very far.

    So there’s a place for all of the above:

    LPVO-equipped M16, Mid-VPO M110, high mag scoped .300 Mag (which I would just skip for .338, if it were me making the decision), and the .50, in one flavor or another. A few integrally suppressed 10/22 rifles are handy, on occasion.
     

    Mgderf

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    A statement of general truth, for the history of the profession, but one was recently turned on it’s head in Iraq.

    The M110 platform really came into its own in the highly dynamic urban theaters, with short exposures, and relatively short ranges from contact to 7-800 meters. With a decent VPO, they do a helluva job in an emergency suppressive fire mode as well; though the individual sniper’s loadout isn’t typically enough rounds for their primary long rifle to last very long in a firefight, the battle effects of heavier rounds inflicted with precision has been proven time and time again.

    Then, we went to Afghanistan, and found that a .308 just doesn’t go very far.

    So there’s a place for all of the above:

    LPVO-equipped M16, Mid-VPO M110, high mag scoped .300 Mag (which I would just skip for .338, if it were me making the decision), and the .50, in one flavor or another. A few integrally suppressed 10/22 rifles are handy, on occasion.
    Diversity is a good thing.
    Always use the best tool for the task.
     

    MrSmitty

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    In most cases I seen/heard, if there is an assistant sniper, he usually has a semi-auto, or auto, like an M-14....in case the defecation hits the oscillator.....
     

    Gingerbeardman

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    I didn't read the attached article, but I always thought it was a matter of bolt lockup being stronger in a bolt action rifle. Stronger lockup, better accuracy. Is that correct? However, this theory was developed before the AR market exploded, and, I'm guessing, great strides were made in accuracy from that platform. It would be interesting to see a side by side shoot with same marksman and scope at same range, same caliber etc.
     

    Leadeye

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    Semi autos usually require faster powder to operate than what will give the cartridge optimum velocity.
     

    ECS686

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    As some have said Agencies pick Bolt guns for an M/O role as the precision accuracy is tighter and less expensive to get to than a semi auto. And if multiple hostage taker shots are needed LE practices the “synchro” shot where 2 or more M/Os shot at the same time

    Military applications can be outside of the 1 or half MOA (what most require) standard for an actual traditional hostage taker **** vs a Military fire fight where more than one round would be used.
     

    Ggreen

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    I see (on tv) most all sniper type rifles are Bolt action, typically a Winchester 70.
    Why? Over a blow-back rifle does a locked up
    breech offer that much more in fps?
    700 variants are more popular for special purpose rifles in recent history post Vietnam Era. Increasingly popular are spr gas guns with swat and local pd.

    Generally speaking though bolt guns are popular for magnum cartridges. 300wm 338lm etc... there just isn't a lightweight reliable precision rifle in semi auto that is handling those loads. Looking at short action cartridges you see a lot of special purpose rifles in semi auto. The gap in precision has really closed between gas and bolt guns. The gap in power won't change. 300wm will do things and carry energy that none of the current short action rounds will do.
     

    russc2542

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    I didn't read the attached article, but I always thought it was a matter of bolt lockup being stronger in a bolt action rifle. Stronger lockup, better accuracy. Is that correct? However, this theory was developed before the AR market exploded, and, I'm guessing, great strides were made in accuracy from that platform. It would be interesting to see a side by side shoot with same marksman and scope at same range, same caliber etc.
    Again, cost-benefit. A semi-auto *can* be just as strong but there are more parts moving faster so it takes more effort/cost. Besides, it only has to be strong enough to not distort under the cartridge's power, being stronger than necessary provides no accuracy benefit.

    However, having a tight lockup is of benefit to accuracy in that it reduces headspace variances shot to shot. Again though, cost to accomplish it rather than possibility. that strength and tight action also affect reliability. A manual action isn't as bothered but a semi auto has to be loose enough to tolerate some dirt. A semi auto also has a limited range of ammo power that it'll cycle on, a bolt you can way under- and over- load and still cycle it. An under-loaded semi-auto becomes an awkward straight pull. You can really tailor the ammo to a bolt gun but a semi has to stay within the operational window (or tune the gun to move the operational window).
     

    Gingerbeardman

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    So I watched with interest as Falkor Defense developed the .300 WinMag AR that's accurate beyond 1000 yards. It's pretty expensive, which is to be expected, but how much of the accuracy is inherent to the round as opposed to the build quality? That's just a random example but there are rounds better suited to the sort of shooting semi auto guns are made for, as opposed to calibers better suited for different work. There's a reason Glock doesn't make a .223 pistol and there's a specific need the .450 bushmaster was developed. It may be a matter of bolt gun is better suited to long range work or just has longer resume of that sort of work.
     

    natdscott

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    In most cases I seen/heard, if there is an assistant sniper, he usually has a semi-auto, or auto, like an M-14....in case the defecation hits the oscillator.....
    There is almost always a spotter. The US has gone to sending squad-strength sniper elements a lot of the time, and sometimes small platoon-size, particularly in urban terrain that shows generalized hostility and/or guerrilla organizations. Basically, if the parameters of the mission allow for a slightly increased footprint (ie, lower stealth) in the immediate vicinity of the team, then a larger force will almost certainly be deployed; the ability of 4-10, maybe even 15 soldiers to fight their way out of a problem instead of immediately requiring QRF…it’s a good investment.

    There are still the “2 ghillies, a scope, and a rifle” missions, but it’s not as common as perceived by the Joe Hard-On civilian.
     
    Last edited:

    DadSmith

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    Just my personal experience. My bolt action rifles do seem to shoot more accurately or I just shoot bolt action rifles better than AR type rifles.
     

    natdscott

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    Just my personal experience. My bolt action rifles do seem to shoot more accurately or I just shoot bolt action rifles better than AR type rifles.
    Well, I don’t think there is any doubt that, as a type, the bolt action rifle has more accuracy potential than does the AR.

    That being said, shooting the AR into truly small groups is a particular skill. Not everyone that can shoot a bolt gun well is able to do the same with the AR.

    -Nate
     
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