Bill Wilson and Ken Hackathorn's Crystal Ball Predictions - Gun Guys Ep. 52

[bwframe]

 

[Trapper Jim]

These round tables take me back. Only thing missing was the beer bottles and Jack Daniel’s. Can’t show that today. When you speak your mind there are some that are not going to agree with you. Those are the people who are often who follow a belief and not reality.

Gun review is good. If you are in the know, you remember that STI only lacked the H to being a word. Dot comments are my way of thinking as well.

Training world is a good eval. Since I only do personal training and not large groups for the last 10 years, My business has been COVID proof. I have and do however able to furnish ammo upon request for training.

Remember, this pandemic has shown what many have known for years. The dependence on cheap goods and labor along with a worldwide 9mm following, has brought us to a vulnerable state. Sad.

 

[cedartop]

Lets start off by saying I have a lot of respect for these guys and their accomplishments. I recently defended Paul Howe when he had a somewhat similar video though he has waay more real world experience to base his opinions on. However, this video was tough to sit through. It is what the kids would call cringey. Innovation doesn't stop just because you don't want to be part of it. When people in the gun world talk about "boomers" in a negative parlance, this is the type of thing they are talking about. Apparently you don't have to be young and dumb to not know what you don't know. I will say it seemed like Ken was dragging Bill into places he didn't really agree with.

As far as the training world, I will say I agree 100% with Ken when he talks about Blackwater fever and how your mission should drive your training and your gear. He completely loses me after that. Guys like Jedlinski are now scheduling for 2023 with many of their 2022 classes already being sold out. I don't think they are witnessing the contraction of the market that Ken is talking about. If you want to complain about something in the training world I would be more willing to complain about all of the horrible people teaching out there who shouldn't be. All of the NRA instructors who can't shoot there way out of a paper bag. The ones who have to drive from the clubhouse to the range 200 yards away because they would have a stroke or heart attack if they walked that far. The ones who are teaching concealed carry classes but don't carry or carry a NAA .22 in their pocket they they couldn't even get to if they needed it. What we really need are good instructors willing to teach beginners the right right way.

Red dots. Face it they are here to stay. Do you have to have one to shoot well? Of course not. Are they for everyone? No, just like I say that Appendix carry is not for everyone and neither are snubnose revolvers and 1911's. A lot of their comments on slide mounted red dot pistols tell me they just don't know what they are talking about.

There are older instructors out there who continue to learn and innovate yet are well grounded. Guys like Tom Givens, Dave Spaulding, and the late Pat Rogers come to mind. You know who else was an innovater, Jeff Cooper. Now once he got to where he wanted to be he stopped. AIWB is not new, it is just more popular. Contemporaries of theirs like Bruce Nelson and Chic Gaylord were using it and building holsters for it decades ago.

Unfortunately they, Ken in particular, just sound like bitter old men looking for something to complain about. They did do a nice little commercial for Wilson Combat towards the end there with the Sig 320.

 

[devildog70]

There are older instructors out there who continue to learn and innovate yet are well grounded. Guys like Tom Givens, Dave Spaulding, and the late Pat Rogers come to mind. You know who else was an innovater, Jeff Cooper. Now once he got to where he wanted to be he stopped. AIWB is not new, it is just more popular. Contemporaries of theirs like Bruce Nelson and Chic Gaylord were using it and building holsters for it decades ago.

Jim Cirillo agrees

 

[jlw]

We may see some contraction amongst the traveling trainer circle should the ammo drought continue long-term or get worse. With millions of new gun owners in the market, "where the bullet comes out" classes should be sustainable.

As for red dots and the training contraction question, those instructors who have built their curriculum specifically around the dot will have to adapt once the dot becomes so commonplace that students don't see the need for a specific class on the dot.

There will always be a segment of the market that pays to hang out with their favorite shooting celebrity more so than for the content of the classes...

 

[cedartop]

We may see some contraction amongst the traveling trainer circle should the ammo drought continue long-term or get worse. With millions of new gun owners in the market, "where the bullet comes out" classes should be sustainable.

As for red dots and the training contraction question, those instructors who have built their curriculum specifically around the dot will have to adapt once the dot becomes so commonplace that students don't see the need for a specific class on the dot.

There will always be a segment of the market that pays to hang out with their favorite shooting celebrity more so than for the content of the classes...

I can't remember now which trainer said it recently but it was something to the effect of pretty soon normal classes will be red dots and some will offer "special" irons only classes. I can't say if that will actually happen but it says something to the popularity of the dot. I don't really see where a cirriculum needs to specifically center around only one.

When I took an Ernest Langdon class in 2014 I was the only one shooting a dot gun. When I took his advanced class a year later there were 4 dot guns. Looking at a recent video of his, everyone in the class was running dots. To my knowledge Ernest has no dot specific classes.

 

[jlw]

There really is no need for a special dot class. Spaulding created one simply due to market demand.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Curious. Any of these trainers offer and encourage you to come back for a free eval to see if you actually put into practice the curriculum or not?

Asking for a friend.

 

[devildog70]

Curious. Any of these trainers offer and encourage you to come back for a free eval to see if you actually put into practice the curriculum or not?

Asking for a friend.

Why would they? That's a horrible business model, and that is what teaching is for guys who do this for a living.

I don't care what a trainer that teaches marksmanship 100 hours a year at his home range does. There is probably a reason that person is only teaching how often and where they do. If I want training from a top-notch instructor, I'm willing to pay for it, and they won't need to woo me back with offers of a free checkup.

Whether I am willing to dedicate the time to practice their curriculum or not is up to me. I don't need to have the teacher sign off on my homework

 

[Trapper Jim]

Why would they? That's a horrible business model, and that is what teaching is for guys who do this for a living.

I don't care what a trainer that teaches marksmanship 100 hours a year at his home range does. There is probably a reason that person is only teaching how often and where they do. If I want training from a top-notch instructor, I'm willing to pay for it, and they won't need to woo me back with offers of a free checkup.

Whether I am willing to dedicate the time to practice their curriculum or not is up to me. I don't need to have the teacher sign off on my homework

That makes sense. Especially where it is on the student to put in practice what he paid for in time and money for top notch training. Those that do are very responsible shooters and usually continue being a student of the gun forever. Some however, get the tshirt and give up and that’s on them.

 

[ECS686]

To me Ken didn’t say anything that wasn’t true. It also seems a lot of people want to immediately discount someone if that persons experience is different than what they believe or like.

Specifically on RDS I personally am not a fan on handguns and here’s why. I went through Dave Spaulding MRDS class. I have ran a RDS on agency and Military long guns since 2003 and like it there. I dabled with them in my PPC days (used a fellow shooters for a couple matches) and after all that with handguns not so much sold on them.

There are always an exception but what I have seen for most people it’s just a feel good item they think makes them better but in reality they are going backwards

I have put a few thousand rounds through and can say I’m still not sold.

What I see is most people that use them (outside of the professional students that go to several classes and practice frequently) are not the ones that commits to the practice needed to both get and stay proficient at them.

Someone else that has vast experience base on it