ATF 4999

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • Karl-just-Karl

    Retired
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Nov 5, 2014
    1,205
    113
    NE
    Yeah, I'm trying to figure out this same thing. There was a lot of talk out at the range this last weekend about implementation starting in August 22.

    I would like to know more if it is happening or not.
     

    JAL

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 14, 2017
    2,161
    113
    Indiana
    Yeah, I'm trying to figure out this same thing. There was a lot of talk out at the range this last weekend about implementation starting in August 22.

    I would like to know more if it is happening or not.

    ATF it is scheduled to take action in August. It's Docket No. ATF 2021R–08; AG Order No. 5070–2021, the proposed rulemaking that implements ATF Form 4999 for evaluating firearms with "braces" to determine if they're pistols, rifles, or short barrel rifles (SBR) requiring an ATF Tax Stamp.

    I strongly suggest reading the entire discussion with the three example firearms which includes photos of them and how they were evaluated on the 4999. Four points or more in either Section II, or in Section III (don't add them together) classifies the firearm as a short barrel rifle. Pay close attention to length measurements, how they are made, and the nuances in them with prior rulings. It shouldn't be too difficult for most to make relatively simple changes to take off enough points to keep it under four in the two sections, albeit the result won't be what you'd like to have.

    Link to the "proposed" rules in the Federal Register (I used the PDF version, it was easier to read):
    https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2021-06-10/pdf/2021-12176.pdf

    I've probably opened a can of worms here as people read the ATF 4999 and its point system.
    John
     

    Karl-just-Karl

    Retired
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Nov 5, 2014
    1,205
    113
    NE
    ATF it is scheduled to take action in August. It's Docket No. ATF 2021R–08; AG Order No. 5070–2021, the proposed rulemaking that implements ATF Form 4999 for evaluating firearms with "braces" to determine if they're pistols, rifles, or short barrel rifles (SBR) requiring an ATF Tax Stamp.

    I strongly suggest reading the entire discussion with the three example firearms which includes photos of them and how they were evaluated on the 4999. Four points or more in either Section II, or in Section III (don't add them together) classifies the firearm as a short barrel rifle. Pay close attention to length measurements, how they are made, and the nuances in them with prior rulings. It shouldn't be too difficult for most to make relatively simple changes to take off enough points to keep it under four in the two sections, albeit the result won't be what you'd like to have.

    Link to the "proposed" rules in the Federal Register (I used the PDF version, it was easier to read):
    https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2021-06-10/pdf/2021-12176.pdf

    I've probably opened a can of worms here as people read the ATF 4999 and its point system.
    John
    Can of worms? Nah, the .gov already did that.

    With just a cursory perusing, the link you posted to the Federal Register was more of what I was looking for. Thank you.

    The guys at the range already had their tape measures out and were debating the measuring points. One of them is a naturalized citizen originally from an oppressive country and is all about following the rules. He has no concept of dissent through non-compliance.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: JAL

    tcecil88

    Master
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Nov 18, 2013
    1,902
    113
    @ the corner of IN, KY & OH.
    The caveat to the rules is where it says that they have the right to determine your pistol is an SBR even if you pass they points checklist. It basically makes it impossible to build a pistol that is actually usable. Once the new rules come out, there will probably be alot of lawsuits.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: JAL

    JAL

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 14, 2017
    2,161
    113
    Indiana
    The caveat to the rules is where it says that they have the right to determine your pistol is an SBR even if you pass they points checklist. It basically makes it impossible to build a pistol that is actually usable. Once the new rules come out, there will probably be alot of lawsuits.
    I also predict lawsuits. If they begin declaring everything an SBR in spite of the checklist or evaluating contrary to their examples, the first thing the lawsuit will claim is arbitrary and capricious application of their rules. The challenges will be costly and time consuming which most government entities rely on to get away with doing what they damn well please - that the plaintiff doesn't have deep enough pockets to mount the challenge. I've seen this operative with a trial court judge betting on the individual not having enough money for an appeal.

    I've attached the Fed Register PDF with the proposed rules, discussion about them, the ATF 4999 and three example evaluations with their rationale for the scores.

    John
     

    Attachments

    • 2021-12176 ATF 4999.pdf
      1.9 MB · Views: 16

    VostocK

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Apr 28, 2010
    296
    63
    All of my AR's and AK's identify as emotional-support-flint-lock muskets so they are immune from any gun control laws and I should also be allowed to take them on airplanes.
     

    JAL

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 14, 2017
    2,161
    113
    Indiana
    With the roll our current SCOTUS is on, maybe ATF will do the **** around and find out thing.
    There are some aspects of the just released SCOTUS Bruen decision that could clip ATF's regulatory wings - most recently the proposed Pistol Brace Form 4999 and associated regulations.

    John
     
    Top Bottom