AR pistol 'rule' question

[DDadams]

Has anyone heard/seen anything in regards to the upcoming BS for AR pistols WITHOUT a brace?

If I remove a brace from one and just keep it as it's set up, any word on if it'll still have to pass the worksheet 4999 guidelines or it's just fine the way it sits?

 

[bwframe]

Might just depend on how well we do tomorrow?

Election Day 2022 - November 8

Hopefully I haven't missed another election day watching, popcorn eating, sort of thread?

www.indianagunowners.com

 

[DDadams]

Might just depend on how well we do tomorrow?

Election Day 2022 - November 8

Hopefully I haven't missed another election day watching, popcorn eating, sort of thread?

www.indianagunowners.com

We're *never* going to vote our way out of these problems. Both sides are tainted and the whole system needs to be thrown out.

It may affect it, but in the short term it'll just be a band-aid at best.

 

[CitizenX]

What upcoming BS? Please tell.

 

[KellyinAvon]

What upcoming BS? Please tell.

^^This!^^ Inquiring minds want to know @DDadams

 

[bwframe]

We're *never* going to vote our way out of these problems. Both sides are tainted and the whole system needs to be thrown out.

It may affect it, but in the short term it'll just be a band-aid at best.

Go ahead and vote in the dems and we'll see how your thinking goes then.

Oh wait, that's exactly what happened last election, right? Is that why we are talking about this maybe gun control at all?


.

 

[Ingomike]

We're *never* going to vote our way out of these problems.

Sounds like something I said to dad when I was a kid, “dad we are never going to dig this hole hole six feet deep by hand”. He said “yes we will, one shovel at a time“.

One vote at a time my friend.

The left did not get us here with one election, we will not move it back with one election, keep the faith.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

What upcoming BS? Please tell.

^^This!^^ Inquiring minds want to know @DDadams

Pretty sure he's talking about this:

Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached “Stabilizing Braces” | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

On January 13, 2023, the Attorney General signed ATF final rule 2021R-08F, “Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached ‘Stabilizing Braces,’” amending ATF’s regulations to clarify when a rifle is designed, made, and intended to be fired from the shoulder. The final rule was published in the...

www.atf.gov

Has anyone heard/seen anything in regards to the upcoming BS for AR pistols WITHOUT a brace?

If I remove a brace from one and just keep it as it's set up, any word on if it'll still have to pass the worksheet 4999 guidelines or it's just fine the way it sits?

According to the ATF's webpage, it should only affect pistols with a stabilizing brace attached. At the top of the 4999 form itself it says: "FACTORING CRITERIA FOR RIFLED BARREL WEAPONS WITH ACCESSORIES* commonly referred to as 'STABILIZING BRACES'"

So it shouldn't apply to any AR pistol with no brace.

Ah, but wait just one moment, look at that pesky old asterisk there. There's more fine print to read. The ATF, in their infinite wisdom, would not be so foolish as to spell things out clearly for us peasants. No, they have, of course, cleverly chosen a route to make sure that they can always come up with new reasons out of thin air to raid your house, shoot your dog, wife, and/or child, and throw you in jail if they don't like the type of gun you have. Just beneath the header on form 4999, it says: "The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives reserves the right to preclude classification as a pistol with a “stabilizing braces” for any firearm that achieves an apparent qualifying score but is an attempt to make a “short-barreled rifle” and circumvent the GCA or NFA"

Ah! So even if a firearm passes their convoluted and subjective guidelines, they can still classify it as an SBR, based on their subjective and ever-mysterious opinion.

However, surely they wouldn't do this to a plain old AR pistol with no brace at all attached? Right?

Nope, read further my friend: "*As used in this worksheet, the term “accessory” is intended as a general term to describe the marketing of items commonly known as “stabilizing braces” and does not affect any ATF determinations whether such items when attached to a handgun are, in fact, “accessories” not necessary for the operation of the handgun, but which enhance its usefulness or effectiveness, or whether they are component parts necessary to properly operate a weapon, such as a rifle."

Looking at that part in bold, I don't know about you, but it sounds to me like they're trying to say that even an integral part of the firearm can count as a "stabilizing brace." Got a little too much surface area on the end of that buffer tube? Why, that's a stabilizing brace now.

Okay, realistically, if you just have a plain old buffer tube with no modifications, and no braces anywhere in your possession, I don't think you have to worry about the form. If you have any kind of special or modified buffer tube that could in any way appear to make it easier to shoulder, or if you have sights or optics that are difficult to see while holding the pistol with arms extended, then I'd say you could probably end up having them come after you, especially if they decide they have a bone to pick with you for whatever reason.

However, none of this is implemented yet, so you're not gonna get clear answers right now (and maybe not even after it's implemented.) The above is just my non-lawyer reading of the rule, so don't do anything based on what I say. Read the rule yourself and reach your own conclusions, or reach out to a trustworthy source that understands the law.

And above all, as others have said, please vote tomorrow. If you absolutely must vote 3rd party, that's still better than nothing. Maybe they'll rig the vote, maybe you're vote won't matter, but if you don't vote at all, they won't even have to try anymore, and then you really have surrendered and handed them total victory. Unless of course you've chosen to resist tyranny by other means, but I think I'd have heard about it in the news by now if you had.

 

[DDadams]

Go ahead and vote in the dems and we'll see how your thinking goes then.

Oh wait, that's exactly what happened last election, right? Is that why we are talking about this maybe gun control at all?


.

Lmao some people on this site are goofy as hell.

If saying both sides are trash and corrupt means I'm a Democrat then you guys are as dense as the leftists say you are.


And I'm referring to the AR pistol brace "rule" changes. Not sure how that wouldn't be blatantly obvious. It's kind of a big deal and is the only BS I know about coming through the pipeline so far for more gun control.


Hopefully it doesn't make it through but I just wanted to see if there was any clarification on pistols without braces yet.

 

[DDadams]

^^This!^^ Inquiring minds want to know @DDadams

The pistol brace "rule". It's kind of a big deal, have you not heard about it?

And above all, as others have said, please vote tomorrow. If you absolutely must vote 3rd party, that's still better than nothing. Maybe they'll rig the vote..

Thanks for the opinion on the brace stuff. I was worried about the ambiguity of the wording as well and am sure it was intentional for them to add in more things later.

As far as the voting goes, I'd never vote third party. Not in the current state of things. I'd rather vote republican and have a small bandaid put on the problems than throw my vote away completely.

 

[KellyinAvon]

The pistol brace "rule". It's kind of a big deal, have you not heard about it?




Thanks for the opinion on the brace stuff. I was worried about the ambiguity of the wording as well and am sure it was intentional for them to add in more things later.

As far as the voting goes, I'd never vote third party. Not in the current state of things. I'd rather vote republican and have a small bandaid put on the problems than throw my vote away completely.

Yes I have. In the OP the WITHOUT braces is what caught my eye.

 

[DDadams]

Yes I have. In the OP the WITHOUT braces is what caught my eye.

Oh, I get the confusion now. My bad.

I'm just wondering this all because from what I recall, I believe it's "illegal" to have a loaded rifle in my car with me in Indiana, and I hadn't even thought about this brace change possibly meaning I had no way to have a firearm with a rifle cartridge ready to go in the car anymore.

If it actually goes through and isn't struck down, as it should be, I'm hoping I can at least have a non braced pistol still loaded.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

... from what I recall, I believe it's "illegal" to have a loaded rifle in my car with me in Indiana...

Just curious; is this due to some laws/rules particular to a place you regularly go with your vehicle? I think I remember this question being hashed out in a couple other threads, and IIRC it was legal to have a loaded rifle in your vehicle in Indiana, except in certain circumstances like you can't have a loaded rifle on an ATV on public land.

 

[MCgrease08]

 

[DDadams]

Just curious; is this due to some laws/rules particular to a place you regularly go with your vehicle? I think I remember this question being hashed out in a couple other threads, and IIRC it was legal to have a loaded rifle in your vehicle in Indiana, except in certain circumstances like you can't have a loaded rifle on an ATV on public land.

No. I just thought I remembered multiple threads talking about it being illegal in Indiana.

If I'm remembering misinformation that's great, as I never actually double checked if that was truly the case?

 

[bwframe]

Lmao some people on this site are goofy as hell.

If saying both sides are trash and corrupt means I'm a Democrat then you guys are as dense as the leftists say you are...

Just a goofy dense guy here, but are you sure you know what you are talking about as are as far as loaded rifles in vehicles?

... I believe it's "illegal" to have a loaded rifle in my car with me in Indiana, and I hadn't even thought about this brace change possibly meaning I had no way to have a firearm with a rifle cartridge ready to go in the car anymore...

 

[DDadams]

Just a goofy dense guy here, but are you sure you know what you are talking about as are as far as loaded rifles in vehicles?

No, I'm not sure. As I stated one post above yours, I was going off of what I read in a couple threads that were discussing it.

I'm totally happy to admit I've been wrong in my life and hope I'm remembering bad information. I can admit when I'm wrong or said something stupid.

 

[Rookie]

 

[Rookie]

Is it legal to carry loaded shotgun in car?

Yes you can. A pistol grip on a shotgun does not make it a pistol. It needs to retain it's 18"+ barrel so as not to violate NFA law and Indiana's ban on short barrel shotguns. (snip) Now, for my :twocents:, get a sidefolder stock before going pistol grip only. If you are in the 1 in a 1000...

www.indianagunowners.com

 

[AndreusMaximus]

No. I just thought I remembered multiple threads talking about it being illegal in Indiana.

If I'm remembering misinformation that's great, as I never actually double checked if that was truly the case?

It was brought up in some other threads that people were thinking it was illegal, but I never saw any law cited that would make it illegal, and most people seemed to think it was legal, but I couldn't find any good source cited in the threads I looked at, so I did a search just now and found this from the attorney general's office:

(Edit: looks like Rookie just beat me to it, haha.)

https://www.in.gov/attorneygeneral/files/Gun-Owners-Bill-of-Rights_Web.pdf

"Q: Is a license to carry a handgun required in Indiana?
A: No, a permit or license is not required to possess or carry a handgun,
shotgun, or rifle in Indiana after July 1, 2022. Handguns, shotguns, and
rifles are allowed in the vehicles of all persons 18 years of age and
older who have not been deemed an “improper person” by the state. An
improper person could be someone with a felony conviction, domestic
violence offense, or has a dangerous mental illness, among other
disqualifying reasons." (Emphasis Added.)

So if that sheet is trustworthy, looks like the answer is yes, it's legal.

It's always harder finding out for certain that something is legal than illegal, though. If it's illegal you can just find the specific code that makes it illegal; it's much harder to find a definitive source that says there isn't any code making something illegal, though.