AR PCC vs Scorpion, etc

Sonsofthunder

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I was just about to pull the trigger (yeah yeah, i know) on a Foxtrot Mike AR in 9mm. My main reason behind getting it is both compact firepower and a more easily manageable platform for my daughter to handle as she learns. Familiar controls with other ARs could be advantageous as well, if she ever needed to use mine or my dads. 9 mm is a little more affordable to shoot as well. Then I started reading more and seeing how some guys really like the Scorpion and how it was built to be a 9mm. I get that reasoning as well, though it appears some of the newer AR 9 types are built around the caliber vs hodge podged together as they were several years back. I'm also not including the models we all know are great, but cost 2k. The scorpion looks like it has good aftermarket support, very reliable, but suffers from a bad trigger and grip angle is awful and needs a magpul replacement. The AR looks like it might shoot smoother due to buffer tube use. The Scorpion looks slightly more compact with folding stock due to different blow back design. Some pros and cons on each side. Btw, I am looking for the 5-7" range barrel wise. Any experience/input is appreciated
 

BR8818

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I love my scorpion it has yet to be left at home when I hit the range. I used the HB Industries reduced weight trigger kit it improved the trigger 90% in my opinion. First thing that had to go was the grip like you mentioned I don't know what they were thinking. I replaced the handguard with a midwest Industries I personally hated the stock cheese grater. I also replaced the charging handle w/ an extended one for extra knuckle clearance. Some people replace the safeties but after changing the grip they're fine. Others also replace the mag release with a paddle style, I kept mine stock because I use my trigger finger to drop the mag not my offhand thumb like most. I'm also using the factory fold stock "extension" with a tailhook adapter. With these upgrades I love it.
 

Sonsofthunder

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Thanks for the input. Do you have a pic of your setup? How is the recoil compared to an AR? I know ARs don't particularly recoil compared to long range rifles, or a 12 gauge, but I've heard from some that the scorpion doesn't shoot very "soft". Also, one of the guys I spoke with said that 5" barrels don't give enough room, hand could easily slip off the foregrip even with a stop installed. Idk what lengths the scorpion comes in, but I was looking in the 5-7 range.
 

92FSTech

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I had a PSA blowback AR9. I had reliability issues with it, and honestly recoil on the straight blowback gun in 9mm was comparable to an AR in .223. It wasn't bad...but more than I had hoped for out of a shoulder-fired weapon in a small pistol caliber.

I ultimated got rid of that AR9, and built myself a new one using a CMMG radially delayed blowback BCG and barrel. That gun is everything I hoped for. Soft and flat recoil for rapid followup shots, it has last round bolt hold open which my PSA didn't, and it has been 100% reliable. Compatible controls with my other ARs is a huge plus, too, as the reason I built it was to be a training rifle that I can use on short range steel and in the pistol-caliber-only bays at my club.

Iirc I have about $700 in it.
 

Cameramonkey

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Since its for a kid, how about a regular AR with a rimfire conversion? That way when they are ready you just take the training wheels off and switch back to 223?
 

Cameramonkey

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I had a PSA blowback AR9. I had reliability issues with it, and honestly recoil on the straight blowback gun in 9mm was comparable to an AR in .223. It wasn't bad...but more than I had hoped for out of a shoulder-fired weapon in a small pistol caliber.

I ultimated got rid of that AR9, and built myself a new one using a CMMG radially delayed blowback BCG and barrel. That gun is everything I hoped for. Soft and flat recoil for rapid followup shots, it has last round bolt hold open which my PSA didn't, and it has been 100% reliable. Compatible controls with my other ARs is a huge plus, too, as the reason I built it was to be a training rifle that I can use on short range steel and in the pistol-caliber-only bays at my club.

Iirc I have about $700 in it.
are you sure about that price tag? I recall the CMMGs are double that.

IF they were only $700 I'd already have one. (Pre-panic as I recall they started around $1200)
 

BR8818

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Thanks for the input. Do you have a pic of your setup? How is the recoil compared to an AR? I know ARs don't particularly recoil compared to long range rifles, or a 12 gauge, but I've heard from some that the scorpion doesn't shoot very "soft". Also, one of the guys I spoke with said that 5" barrels don't give enough room, hand could easily slip off the foregrip even with a stop installed. Idk what lengths the scorpion comes in, but I was looking in the 5-7 range.


I have the 7"ish model, as for the recoil I don't think it's harsh. Maybe the people saying the recoil is harsh have the shorter model? I mostly shoot suppressed with 147gr subs maybe that's why mine seems soft.
 

Simon6101

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I have the Scorpion, Ar9's, Kriss Vector, Sig MPX, Stribog, ARV,AKV and the Extar EP9.

The Scorpion is a blast to shoot but after upgrades you start getting over 1000 quickly.
The Factory built AR9 will run but the mag release will be different from a 556 AR. The homebuilt AR9 will sometimes require some tinkering to get them to run properly.
The Stribog and MPX are probably my softest shooting but opposite ends of the price scale.
The ARV & AKV were added because they will run on my Scorpion mags.
As you can tell I like my PCC.
 

92FSTech

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are you sure about that price tag? I recall the CMMGs are double that.

IF they were only $700 I'd already have one. (Pre-panic as I recall they started around $1200)

If you buy a Banshee or Guard off the shelf, yes, they're expensive. I just bought the barrel and bcg combo, and sourced the rest of the parts on my own. It was cheaper, and allowed me to set it up exactly as I wanted. I paid just under $400 for the CMMG parts at the time ($424 now), and the rest were a mixture of Aero Precision, Larue, Magpul, and Anderson. CMMG does recommend an enlarged ejection port for these, so I went with an Aero XL upper. I used a standard Anderson lower with the CMMG 9mm Pmag conversion mags...they work awesome, although a bit pricey. I like how it keeps the controls and dimensions of the lower and mags identical to my other ARs. You do have the option to build on a Glock mag lower or other dedicated pistol mag lower if you want, though.

Here's a link to the kit I bought. They have them in shorter barrel lengths, too, but I was looking for a copy of my .223 rifle (and I don't like AR pistols), so I went with the 16". Looks like they're backordered right now, but what isn't these days? https://cmmg.com/barrel-and-bcg-kit-16-4140cm-sbn-9mm

I put mine together back before the covidiocy, so parts were cheaper and more readily available. However if you shop around, and are willing to wait for stuff to come in stock, I imagine you could still save quite a bit over an off-the-shelf gun from CMMG.

The end result is night and day different from my previous PSA blowback gun. That thing had to be sprung perfectly for the specific ammo you were shooting. Switch loads, and I'd get issues with doubling and out of battery discharges. I replaced springs, buffers, and trigger groups to finally get it running right, and was so sick of it that I traded it in at a huge loss toward a new levergun, and was almost as excited to be rid of that AR as I was about the new rifle.

The CMMG build eats everything I feed it, and is softer shooting, smoother, and faster to get back on target. By the nature of it's design (a rotating, lugged bolt), it also has the same out of battery protection as a regular AR, unlike most straight-blowback guns that have nothing to prevent a discharge if the gun short-cycles and the hammer follows the bolt home.

We shot it side by side with an MPX one day, and while I'd say the MPX is even smoother, my gun is lighter and handles better. I'd been considering saving for an MPX when I decided to give the CMMG a try, and am happy I went the way I did. For the money, it's been a better fit for me.
 
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dung

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I have shot several AR9's but dont really remember the models. None of them felt great, but the controls were easy to use. They both seemed to bounce more than my AR15.

I also have a 16" Scorpion and really like it. You can certainly feel the heft of the bolt with recoil. However, it is very easy to shoot and get on target. I haven't bothered to replace the grip. The controls are nothing like my AR so switching between the two can throw me for a loop if I dont practice before a match. I just bought an MP5 clone and still like the Scorpion enough not to sell it.
 

Sonsofthunder

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I had a PSA blowback AR9. I had reliability issues with it, and honestly recoil on the straight blowback gun in 9mm was comparable to an AR in .223. It wasn't bad...but more than I had hoped for out of a shoulder-fired weapon in a small pistol caliber.

I ultimated got rid of that AR9, and built myself a new one using a CMMG radially delayed blowback BCG and barrel. That gun is everything I hoped for. Soft and flat recoil for rapid followup shots, it has last round bolt hold open which my PSA didn't, and it has been 100% reliable. Compatible controls with my other ARs is a huge plus, too, as the reason I built it was to be a training rifle that I can use on short range steel and in the pistol-caliber-only bays at my club.

Iirc I have about $700 in it.
I was looking at the CMMG banshee intitally, but they are at least $1300. I've never built one, but I would be open to the prospect. What other components and parts did you use?
 

Sonsofthunder

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Since its for a kid, how about a regular AR with a rimfire conversion? That way when they are ready you just take the training wheels off and switch back to 223?
I am looking at a .22 conversion kit for my CZ P-07 for cheaper practice and for my daughters to learn. I wanted another close quarters setup that they could also handle confidently until they are more accustomed to larger and louder options.
 

Sonsofthunder

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I have the 7"ish model, as for the recoil I don't think it's harsh. Maybe the people saying the recoil is harsh have the shorter model? I mostly shoot suppressed with 147gr subs maybe that's why mine seems soft.
This is sharp looking, and still pretty concealable with the folding brace. Hows the accuracy?
 

Sonsofthunder

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I have the Scorpion, Ar9's, Kriss Vector, Sig MPX, Stribog, ARV,AKV and the Extar EP9.

The Scorpion is a blast to shoot but after upgrades you start getting over 1000 quickly.
The Factory built AR9 will run but the mag release will be different from a 556 AR. The homebuilt AR9 will sometimes require some tinkering to get them to run properly.
The Stribog and MPX are probably my softest shooting but opposite ends of the price scale.
The ARV & AKV were added because they will run on my Scorpion mags.
As you can tell I like my PCC.
Thanks for the input! i WISH all the options was my problem lol. The AR options im looking at are around $800 currently, so thats not too far off from the scorpion.
 

Sonsofthunder

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I have shot several AR9's but dont really remember the models. None of them felt great, but the controls were easy to use. They both seemed to bounce more than my AR15.

I also have a 16" Scorpion and really like it. You can certainly feel the heft of the bolt with recoil. However, it is very easy to shoot and get on target. I haven't bothered to replace the grip. The controls are nothing like my AR so switching between the two can throw me for a loop if I dont practice before a match. I just bought an MP5 clone and still like the Scorpion enough not to sell it.
I have seen affordable trigger spring changes to address the lousy trigger pull, but I havent seen anything yet for the heavier blow back of the bolt.
 

92FSTech

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I was looking at the CMMG banshee intitally, but they are at least $1300. I've never built one, but I would be open to the prospect. What other components and parts did you use?

There's not much to it, really. It's more "assembly" than building...plenty of youtube videos out there on how to do it. It helps to have certain tools, but not completely necessary.

I just used basic parts:
CMMG Barrel and BCG Combo
Aero Precision XL Upper (for the enlarged ejection port)
Aero Precision Atlas-S One Handguard
Anderson Lower
Larue MBT-2 Trigger
Generic Lower Parts Kit (don't remember...probably whatever was cheapest)
Generic Mil-Spec Charging Handle (don't remember the brand)
Don't remember where I got the spring, buffer, and buffer tube
The rest of the furniture is magpul.

Nothing too fancy...but it's a darn nice shooting rifle. Sadly, the pandemic hit shortly after I put it together, so I haven't shot it as much as I'd like. Probably only have 7-800 rounds through it. .223 has been more abundant and just as cheap to shoot, so I've been shooting that more.
 

Sonsofthunder

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The Stribog A1 with the new curved mags can be had for less than 800
It is a sharp gun. And I hear delayed roller blowback is in the new update. Its close between these at the 800 mark. The only thing I like about the scorpion or ar 9 platform is magazine price and availability
 

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