Achilles Heel Tactical "Man Card Drill"

[cedartop]

I have not hear of them but stumbled on this drill/test. I pieced it together from a couple of different sources and I think goes as follows.

On a C-zone size steel at 25 yards you must shoot:

Pistol 1 shot from low ready in 1 second
Pistol 1 shot from compressed ready in 1 second
Pistol 1 shot from holster in 1.5 seconds
Carbine 1 shot from low ready in 1 second
Carbine 1 shot from high ready in 1 second
Carbine/pistol 1 shot carbine, transition to pistol 1 shot all in 2.5 seconds.

I saw this and thought what a great test for the fundamentals. The nice thing about it is dry work can get a lot of it done and when doing it live fire it is not just a drill/test but you can do multiple reps and get in a good practice session. I have not done much carbine work this year and it showed. My results today.

String one over 10 reps averaged .68
String two over 10 reps averaged .90
String three over 10 reps averaged 1.75 (from concealment)
String four over 5 reps averaged .80
String five over 5 reps averaged 1.25
String six over 5 reps averaged a horrid 3.75

Thinking there was one element missing (recoil control) I added strings for pistol from the two ready positions of 4 shots. From low ready I was averaging 2.25 seconds (my goal), and from compressed I was averaging 2.75.

So looking over this I am going to do more dry fire from compressed ready. I think, for me anyway, using the dot makes this position a little slower than low ready. Clearly I need to get back into doing some dry work with the carbine. I took my BCM with a low power variable 1-6X and I am definitely slower with that than one of my dot equipped carbines. I guess I should add a dot on an offset mount to that.

Anyway I thought that was a fun and challenging diversion from my regular range sessions.

 

[MCgrease08]

Interesting. On paper it doesn't seem like it would be that hard. The pistol from the holster under 1 second seems like the hardest element to me.

Seems pretty silly to post a Youtube video without explaining the drill, but that's another issue.

I'm going to have to give this one a try.

 

[cedartop]

Interesting. On paper it doesn't seem like it would be that hard. The pistol from the holster under 1 second seems like the hardest element to me.

Seems pretty silly to post a Youtube video without explaining the drill, but that's another issue.

I'm going to have to give this one a try.

Sorry, shot from holster is in 1.5 seconds I fixed it. The hard part is the regular joe cant make a 25 yard hit without a time limit, let alone in those times. It is definitely not an impossible test but like I said, if you can do it your fundamentals are pretty solid.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Times are relevant to USPSA/Military Ready style gear. Not applicable to deep cover street carry. Be careful to not confuse the two.

 

[cedartop]

Times are relevant to USPSA/Military Ready style gear. Not applicable to deep cover street carry. Be careful to not confuse the two.

I am a little surprised you don't approve, you always talk about mastering the fundamentals and not putting the cart before the horse. As for not being relevant to concealed carriers I disagree. I ran it concealed. A good holster and concealment should only cost about .25 of a second.

 

[MCgrease08]

Times are relevant to USPSA/Military Ready style gear. Not applicable to deep cover street carry. Be careful to not confuse the two.

Why would speed not be relevant to street carry?

 

[jlw]

Carbine shots on steel at 25 yards?

 

[cedartop]

Carbine shots on steel at 25 yards?

I assume you are talking from a safety aspect. Mine is high quality and angled enough that I am not concerned but that does seem close I typically go no less than 50. You would be better off using a 9mm "AR".

 

[Trapper Jim]

Why would speed not be relevant to street carry?

Speed is relevant but are you saying you carry like this dude in the video?

 

[ECS686]

I get the practice with the battle belts or duty stuff if you are into say USPSA, Military or LE. But this Battle rattle mindset isn’t really relevant to a CCW scenario.

That said if you really want to not cheat yourself as others mentioned. Do it from what and method of carry. AND time only your first “cold run” of the day.

 

[jlw]

I assume you are talking from a safety aspect. Mine is high quality and angled enough that I am not concerned but that does seem close I typically go no less than 50. You would be better off using a 9mm "AR".

Yes as to the safety of it being a concern. 25 is a LOT closer than any manufacturer's recommendations that I have seen.

 

[MCgrease08]

Speed is relevant but are you saying you carry like this dude in the video?

No, but I still find value in knowing what my draw to first shot times are. If I'm going to need to launch some type of counter ambush, the window to do it will likely be brief. I personally want to have the confidence I have the speed and skill to do so.

 

[bwframe]

I like the gent's thought process and the honing of skills. Wouldn't want to take anything away from him for developing a following also.

All that said, I don't get the trend of trainers working out of battle belts with drop leg holsters and such? I guess, if you are training military, LEO or competition it sounds workable? For the average folk EDCing though?

 

[Cameramonkey]

Speed is relevant but are you saying you carry like this dude in the video?

I think you are missing the point. The carry style is for reference on the times as to what is expected. Acceptable times should increase for certain types of carry because it naturally takes longer to draw from those.

Ive seen the F.A.S.T. drill also mentions " This is for open top/holsters, no concealment. Add x time for deep conceal".

 

[Trapper Jim]

I am a little surprised you don't approve, you always talk about mastering the fundamentals and not putting the cart before the horse. As for not being relevant to concealed carriers I disagree. I ran it concealed. A good holster and concealment should only cost about .25 of a second.

How do you get “not approve” the drill out of my statement? Of course this practice has merit but my caution is for a typical gun owner (not competitor with race equipment) carrying a gun for street defense may find this drill humbling at best, let alone learning anything by it. I would rather see lessons and drills on HOW to do this with practical equipment, for which there are many modules on this) rather than a”look at what I can do” methodology.

 

[Cameramonkey]

How do you get “not approve” the drill out of my statement? Of course this practice has merit but my caution is for a typical gun owner (not competitor with race equipment) carrying a gun for street defense may find this drill humbling at best, let alone learning anything by it. I would rather see lessons and drills on HOW to do this with practical equipment, for which there are many modules on this) rather than a”look at what I can do” methodology.

If its like other drills, you just add time to account for CC to compensate/handicap.

 

[Trapper Jim]

If its like other drills, you just add time to account for CC to compensate/handicap.

No worries. Most of us know that. Drills being what they are are very good for practice. My caution has nothing to do with the fun and skill set measure of this drill. But imagine if you will a noob that takes his deep cover gun and equipment out to do this, which I have witnessed many times, and to help him reach the goal of mastering these times, start changing up his equipment. Things like an offset open scabbard in a quick release material and loosened screws, or file down his sear for a better yank, or tailor his loads into powder puff projectiles all things that are counter productive to street carry. Simply adding time to compensate for the same exact race equipment but with a cover garment is not indicative of real street carry. Again, I caution to not confuse the two. Each weekend, very few USPSA and IDPA shooters wear and shoot their street equipment as carried, that is IF they carry. Wagons, suitcase shooting bags, hand powder, special shooting glasses, Velcro belts, and many more aids to the shooter who wants to go fast to reach the kind of numbers that can be achieved with this drill. There is nothing wrong with this. It is a blast and can be rewarding. I love the games. However, I do not confuse my street equipment scores and ability with responsible street carry.

 

[cedartop]

I like the gent's thought process and the honing of skills. Wouldn't want to take anything away from him for developing a following also.

All that said, I don't get the trend of trainers working out of battle belts with drop leg holsters and such? I guess, if you are training military, LEO or competition it sounds workable? For the average folk EDCing though?

I hear you. From what I understand he is ex.mil and current LE so there you go. Everyone wants to train with those kind of people it seems whether what they are teaching is relevant to your mission or not. I fell into that trap myself years back when I was training with all of the Delta/SOF guys. Some of them got it, some of them didn't.

 

[ECS686]

No, but I still find value in knowing what my draw to first shot times are. If I'm going to need to launch some type of counter ambush, the window to do it will likely be brief. I personally want to have the confidence I have the speed and skill to do so.

Respectfully. Confidence is important. The problem is a lot of folks have a one dimensional scenario where they are always the Victor. That’s sort of a false confidence

With that most folks spend training time trying to get the speed down with always shooting. I get wanting to be proficient on the draw it is important. However a lot of folks talk about it or these videos usually emphasizes is IF (IF) you know you are going to shoot or are prepaired to draw. Like multiple targets. Everyone’s split times (and misses) are pretty fast when you get a 5 minute walk through or know every target gets a minimum of 2 rounds each. Real world you have to slow down and make assessments. Wether drawing or say a shot is justified what about multiple shots. (LAPD SWAT has 1/2 second split times and that’s junior varsity in some folks minds)

As Dave Spaulding said in a class I took. Drawing is important but most cases. Folks usually have to be seconds ahead of the other guy.

 

[gregkl]

Of course this practice has merit but my caution is for a typical gun owner (not competitor with race equipment) carrying a gun for street defense may find this drill humbling at best, let alone learning anything by it.

This is how I looked at this drill. Those draws are faster than I am currently capable of, especially at 25 yards. (Though I do hit the dueling tree steel at that distance from a ready position okay. I don't know if those are C zone size since I don't shoot USPSA.

But I already have several drills I run, so I most likely won't add this one.

I'm not sure I am a typical gun owner, but that is for another time, perhaps.